pauraque_bk | CoS 11

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CoS 11

Not from this chapter, but

seviet has posted a lovely CoS illustration: Harry and Ron in the staff room (G).

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In Chapter 10, we learned that grapes are a traditional gift for ill people in Britain.

hermione_like had some cool thoughts on the Harry-as-werewolf symbolism. Also, good discussion about Harry's concepts of danger and fear.

CoS 11: The Duelling Club

[Percy:] 'Excellent flying yesterday, really excellent. Gryffindor have just taken the lead for the House Cup -- you earned fifty points!' (137)

How does that work? I thought the Quidditch Cup and the House Cup were two separate things.

'If I ever find out who threw this,' Snape whispered, 'I shall make sure that person is expelled.' (141)

This isn't really an unfair response. Potions are dangerous ('Malfoy got a faceful and his nose began to swell like a balloon; Goyle blundered about, his hands over his eyes, which had expanded to the size of dinner plates' (140) ); Harry is lucky no one was caused any permanent damage. I'm reminded of McGonagall's statement in PS/SS, along the lines of "anyone who messes about in my class will be asked not to return".

Also, does Snape ever find out why Harry did this? Because if not (and if he does know it was Harry, as Harry thinks), add that to the list of legitimate reasons Snape has to dislike him.

'Let me introduce my assistant Professor Snape,' said Lockhart, flashing a wide smile. 'He tells me he knows a tiny little bit about duelling himself and has sportingly agreed to help me with a short demonstration before we begin[...]' (142)

Harry hung back, with a vague feeling it would be unsporting to bewitch Malfoy while he was on the floor, but this was a mistake. Gasping for breath, Malfoy pointed his wand at Harry's knees, choked, 'Tarantallegra!'[...] (144)

Despite the fact that Draco first hits Harry with a painful curse (before they're actually supposed to start), Harry retaliates with nothing more than a Tickling Charm, and is apparently too much of a gentleman to do anything to Draco while he's down. But does Harry actually *know* any harmful spells at this point?

[Lockhart:] 'Whoops -- my wand is a little over-excited.' (145)

No comment.

Snape moved closer to Malfoy, bent down and whispered something in his ear. Malfoy smirked, too. (145)

Snape, too, was looking at Harry in an unexpected way: it was a shrewd and calculating look, and Harry didn't like it. (146)

It seems likely that Snape told Draco to set a snake on Harry, to test if he was a Parselmouth. But where would he get the idea Harry was?

Harry wasn't sure what made him do it. He wasn't even aware of deciding to do it. All he knew was that his legs were carrying him forward as though he was on castors and that he had shouted stupidly at the snake, 'Leave him!' (145)

'But I'm in Gryffindor,' Harry thought. 'The Sorting Hat wouldn't have put me here if I had Slytherin blood...'
'Ah,' said a nasty little voice in his brain, 'But the Sorting Hat wanted to put you in Slytherin, don't you remember?' (147)

I'm not fond of the theory that when Harry hears "nasty voices" in his head, they're really remnants of Voldemort. But I have to admit I see where it comes from, here... These just don't sound like Harry, though of course the sentiment behind "Leave him" is what Harry wants, not what Voldemort would want.

'So?' said Harry. 'I bet loads of people here can do it.'
'Oh no they can't,' said Ron. 'It's not a very common gift. Harry, this is bad.' (146)

Another thing I keep thinking I'm going to point out, and then not. It isn't some sort of fandom myth that Hermione gets all of Ron's useful lines in the movie: it's true. Ron isn't as ignorant as the films make him appear. He's reasonably knowledgable about the wizarding world, and gets a lot of expository lines.

'And in case you're getting ideas,' [Ernie] added hastily, 'I might tell you that you can trace my family back through nine generations of witches and warlocks and my blood's as pure as anyone's, so--' (150)

There's that word again, 'warlock'. With a high-class implication this time.

[Harry:] 'Why would I want to attack Muggle-borns?'
'I've heard you hate those Muggles you live with,' said Ernie swiftly.
'It's not possible to live with the Dursleys and not hate them,' said Harry. 'I'd like to see you try it.' (150)

We get what Harry is saying here -- that he doesn't hate them because they're Muggles -- but the Hufflepuffs don't necessarily.

Past re-read posts are here.

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Did Lockhart ask, and if so, why? And why did Snape agree? Or was it really Snape's idea?

I think I remember reading somewhere that Snape asked to join him. Don't ask me where, but it sticks in my mind. Of course, I could be completely making it up...

'If I ever find out who threw this,' Snape whispered, 'I shall make sure that person is expelled.' (141)
This isn't really an unfair response.

Damn right. If I were teaching a class with potentially dangerous ingredients and some twit threw a firecracker into a beaker or what have you, I would be seriously upset. Anyone with half a brain would be. I'd expell the little creep myself. And it sure looks like Snape knows, or at least suspects, who's the culprit.

'Let me introduce my assistant Professor Snape,' said Lockhart, flashing a wide smile. 'He tells me he knows a tiny little bit about duelling himself and has sportingly agreed to help me with a short demonstration before we begin[...]' (142)
Any thoughts on what really happened here?

Great questions! One of the Hogwarts Letters I'm overdue on is Snape's response to Lockhart's flirtatious invitation to the duel. I can't imagine how Lockhart managed to talk Snape into it; I'd be inclined to think that Snape would be slicing up filet de Gilderoy that evening in his dungeon for even daring to suggest such a thing.

How does that work?

I thought the point difference between the two teams would be addded to that house's total, and also the the cup (i.e. Gryffindor plays Ravenclaw, beats them by 100 points. The 100 points may be negated by misbehaviour in class or Ravenclaw catching up academically in the House Cup, but it scores as a 'win' for them in terms of the Quidditch cup.

It seems likely that Snape told Draco to set a snake on Harry, to test if he was a Parselmouth. But where would he get the idea Harry was?

I actually had the opposite idea, here - I'd thought that by showing Draco a bit of more advanced magic, he'd simply be showing up Harry - and in a particularly Slytherin way (Harry Potter felled by a snake - it's a metaphor, innit? ;)). As I recall, Snape doesn't leave much time between the snake being conjured and his insistence on getting rid of it - before Lockhart intervenes and pisses the snake off further, of course. So Harry doesn't have much time to reveal he's a Parselmouth before the professors step in.

I'd always taken the 'shrewd and calculating look' to mean Snape was considering what Harry being a Parselmouth could mean in the greater scheme of things - what other skills could Harry have got from Voldemort? And how does that affect Snape's position?

Just my 2 cents, anyway. :-)

You're right, I think - as long as Lockhart's word can be taken at face value, of course. :D

Let me introduce my assistant Professor Snape," said Lockhart, flashing a wide smile. "He tells me he knows a tiny little bit about duelling himself and has sportingly agreed to help me with a short demonstration before we begin."

I took 'sportingly agreed' to mean 'volunteered himself without room for argument' - make of that what you will. :D

I don't think there's any question about whether Lockhart's word can be taken at face value! Except near the end, I don't think I could name a single thing he says that's entirely truthful, neither twisted nor exaggerated.

You know, I think you're right. If Snape wanted Harry to talk to the snake, it would have made more sense for him to wait around a bit longer. Unless "I'll get rid of it for you" is some kind of taunt to encourage Harry to show Snape up with his Special Powers... though that seems like a stretch to me.

It seems likely that Snape told Draco to set a snake on Harry, to test if he was a Parselmouth.

I never really saw it that way. A snake would be a particularly difficult spell to face, precisely because it's not a spell; typical HP spells can be either dodged or repelled, but for a snake, Harry would have to react to it with a spell that would specifically disable another, non-human, living creature. So it's testing Harry's ability to genuinely attack another being, not just dodge and hurl hexes.

Incidentally, I wonder whether - rather than coaching him with special knowledge - Snape was simply suggesting a spell that was already a Slytherin trademark. It seems like very complex magic (I don't recall Harry ever learning a "create something ex nihilo" spell, although we do see others using them), so it might be a House secret that all Slytherins learn.

::grin:: Couldn't agree more. The above excerpt, translasted from Lockartese, actually means that Snape likely derided Lockhart's duelling skills, insisted upon being there for the class, and as an added bonus took the opportunity to humiliate the man in front of half of second year.

I wonder what house Lockhart would have been in? He's too incompetent for Slytherin, too chicken for Gryffindor, too stupid for Ravenclaw, and lacks the proper work ethic that would make him eligible for Hufflepuff.

This all makes sense, but that's not why I'm commenting. Whose belt region is that in your icon?

Though he behaves more like a Slytherin, I tend to see him as having been in Gryffindor, because otherwise it seems less likely he'd be able to pull off this image he projects, which is so intensely Gryffindor-like. And people do buy into it, just not most of the speaking characters in this book.

::giggles madly:: My own. You see, a few years ago, I went on a road trip with some friends, with the theme of the movie "Priscilla, Queen of the Desert." (It's an unbelievably, gloriously funny Australian movie about three drag queens who go on a road trip.) As my two male companions consented to crossdress, I figured it was only fair for me to do the same . . .

(Hence the icon keyword "Manly lady". It's a rarely-used icon, most often appearing in times of great sleep deprivation . . .)

Any thoughts on what really happened here? Did Lockhart ask, and if so, why? And why did Snape agree? Or was it really Snape's idea? Did he want to show Lockhart up? I can see Dumbledore suggesting he participate in order to prevent the situation from degenerating into chaos... in his way of asking Snape do to things Snape doesn't want to do, yet that indicate respect that Dumbledore would ask.

I agree that Snape suspected Harry of being a Parselmouth, and saw this as the perfect opportunity to test him while possibly exposing him before the student body as the likely perpetrator of the crimes.

But where would he get the idea Harry was?

Either from Dumbledore, or through somehow knowing some of what Dumbledore knows through another channel.

It isn't some sort of fandom myth that Hermione gets all of Ron's useful lines in the movie: it's true.

Word. The complaints echoing loudest in my head are of course from the most recent PoA, but, I think it happened much more often in CoS. I lost count at about 5 or 6 instances, on my last reread.

We get what Harry is saying here -- that he doesn't hate them because they're Muggles -- but the Hufflepuffs don't necessarily.

Agreed again! I was like, Harry, why did you phrase it that way?

otherwise it seems less likely he'd be able to pull off this image he projects

Do you mean in terms of general house prejudice - a community belief that no Slytherin (for instance) could ever be so brave/clever etc? If that's what you do mean, you have a point :-) I would have put him down as a badly-assimilated Slytherin, but that may be because I tend to think there's far too many Gryffindors (past AND present students) in the books, and I keep looking for examples of non-Gryffindors. :-)

But if there's one 'characteristic' that Lockhart possesses in huge amounts, it's ambition, which is supposed to be a Slytherin trait,isn't it?
Why shouldn't ambition sometimes take the form of wanting to be a star (and Lockhart, as we see, has very few scruples about what he does in pursuit of his aims - again a Slytherin trait) rather than the stereotypical Slytherin wanting-to-be-an-evil-overlord-and-rule-the-world type of ambition?

Many hugs and sparkly things to you,

pauraque, for doing these chapter re-reads. I've been lurking and loving it. :D

B-52s - yaaaayyy!

I'm inclined to agree--and as for the image he projects, I think it's worthwhile to note that Tom Riddle charmed the hell out of everybody.

How does that work? I thought the Quidditch Cup and the House Cup were two separate things.

I guess Harry also was awarded house points for winning the game.

I'm reminded of McGonagall's statement in PS/SS, along the lines of "anyone who messes about in my class will be asked not to return".

Which, in her case, is apparently an exaggeration, as she doesn't seem to mind all that much when Harry and Ron duel with fake wands in her class in GoF....

It seems likely that Snape told Draco to set a snake on Harry, to test if he was a Parselmouth. But where would he get the idea Harry was?

I don't think Snape knew - his response to it is a change in expression - where before he was enjoying setting Harry up to be frightened by a snake, now he responds as if he hadn't expected what happened and he is working out the implications:

Snape, too, was looking at Harry in an unexpected way: it was a shrewd and calculating look..

I suppose this could also be read as Snape having found out what he expected, but the shrewd and calculating look comes after he tells Malfoy to cast the snake spell.

I agree, as well. Which is why I initially wondered - he fits the Slytherin profile in many respects, but he's also rather more incompetent than how I'd consider your average successful Slytherin. And yet,

pauraque has a point, too - he does project a very Gryffindor image, but that wouldn't go over so well with the community if house records are as public as they seem to be.

Why shouldn't ambition sometimes take the form of wanting to be a star ... rather than the stereotypical Slytherin wanting-to-be-an-evil-overlord-and-rule-the-world type of ambition?

I couldn't agree more - I'm something of a Slytherin apologist, and I've made that point many times myself. Perhaps I'm seeing Lockhart too much through Harry's POV - Harry sees him as incompetent and a poseur, therefore so do we. Taking into account that thousands of witches (and wizards) idolise and respect him (and don't have the chance to analyse him on a one-to-one basis), he suddenly becomes a lot less bumbling and a lot more cunning. Something to consider, perhaps.

I wouldn't call Gilderoy incompetent, taking into account that he did keep up his scheme for a long time, that he'd have to trick wizards and witches with more skill than he had into sharing their stories with him. He certainly did possess a healthy dose of cunning to pull all that off.

Like you say, most people wouldn't have the chance to analyse him on a one-to-one basis though, which makes me wonder what on earth made him think he could pull off being a teacher at Hogwarts, what he was looking for there. It seems like such a step down for him, to be a common teacher.

He could very well be a Slytherin, though Gryffindors can be rather scheming and cunning as well. I don't think that is something that is specific for Slytherins.

you earned fifty points! ... I thought the Quidditch Cup and the House Cup were two separate things.

I think they're primarily separate, but doing well at Quidditch helps you overall. This may be partly why Slytherin has been winning both competitions for years before Harry shows up. Fifty points for winning a game seems like an awful lot to me, but then, it's not the first time I've been concerned by the apparent emphasis on sports in a school where, at most, 10% of the students get the chance to play a sport.

'If I ever find out who threw this,' Snape whispered, 'I shall make sure that person is expelled.' (141)

This isn't really an unfair response ... Also, does Snape ever find out why Harry did this? Because if not, add that to the list of legitimate reasons Snape has to dislike him.

I agree, except that I think you've understated my feelings on it. Throwing a firecracker into a cauldron full of a potion that hurts every student it splashes is a rather astonishing and dangerous piece of misbehavior. Did Harry *know* Snape had Deflating Draught? Did he *care*? IIRC, we only hear that any Slytherins were swollen -- might he have actually thought twice if there were Gryffindors sitting by Goyle?

It brings up a few other random points. For instance, Goyle made the potion correctly; perhaps he's less incompetent then we're led to believe. Or he's just having a really good day, at least until some jerk through a firecracker into his cauldron. (I like Harry, really I do.) On another note, Ron and Harry both display an astonishing level of disrespect for Snape as a *teacher* throughout the books. They go on about how unfair he is, but by their own admissions, they don't pay attention in class, they misbehave, at one point in GoF they yell obscenities at him. I can't see Harry and Ron behaving like that to any other teacher, and I can't see many other students behaving like that in Snape's class (or McGonagall's, for instance). Next, they immediately assumed that, since the ingredients weren't in the cupboard, they needed to steal them from Snape. Did *any* of them consider another method? Mail order, for example? Asking an older student to pick them up from Hogsmeade? It's possible these ingredients are restricted, so they couldn't buy them, but that gives an even stronger reason to think twice about their whole plot.

Finally, you say that this contributes to Snape's legitimate dislike of Harry *if* he doesn't know why he did it. I say that it's an even more legitimate dislike if he *does* know, which I suspect he does. As a reader, I really like the Polyjuice scene, but it's one of those things that I think they Should Not Have Done as characters -- much like Harry crawling into Snape's pensieve. I don't see any decent reason that justifies the whole Polyjuice plot, even taking out the excess crimes with it, like throwing firecrackers and knocking out Crabbe and Goyle. Their entire suspicion of Draco boils down to, "He's a jerk, and he once mentioned that his parents were in Slytherin." Snape's hardly going to be more forgiving if he knows about it.

Dumbledore could have talked Snape into assisting, yes. OTOH, I think Lockhart may have approached Snape, figuring that the *Potions* teacher wouldn't be any good, and he could whomp him. Snape, in turn, looked forward to the chance to "legally" hex Lockhart, and in front of all the students too. He gets to show off, *and* expose Lockhart's incompetence. Where's the downside? ;-)

I'd sort of gotten the impression that Draco had started with the Disarming Charm, it just hadn't worked all that well, and that Harry had been the first to use something else. I agree that Harry's got a strong sense of fair play here (Gryffindor foolishness ;-) but neither of Draco's spells seems terribly harmful, either.

Can I also take a moment to cheer for Millicent Bulstrode? Paired with Hermione, she probably knew that she didn't know *near* as many spells as Hermione did. Having little chance to win a magical duel, she chucked that plan and moved the fight into an area she could win -- the physical. Smart move, girl. :-)

Casting my vote on the side that Snape suggested the spell to freak Harry out, and had no idea he was a Parselmouth. I think there may have been a Slytherin pride element to it. Also, Snape had to know that Draco already knew that spell, or he wouldn't have suggested it. Snape hates people showing off in class, but he understands his students' ambition -- he may have figured that this was the *right* venue for showing off, so suggested a spell to Draco that would let him do that. Except that dratted Potter had to go and show him up by speaking Parseltongue.

You don't have conversations with yourself where one side tells you all the things you know, but don't want to acknowledge? Lucky. That's what the "nasty voice" sounds like to me.

Yep, in the books, Hermione gives all the random historical/technical exposition, and Ron gives all the information about the Wizarding World exposition. (Rather makes poor Harry look pathetically uninformed, doesn't it?) In the movies, especially CoS, Hermione does all the exposition, including some of Dumbledore's.

Does Ernie mean nine generations in every direction? That is, he knows and can trace his ancestry through all 512 great⁷-grandparents? I'd love to see that family tree. (I'd love to have my own, really.) I get the impression most of the ancestry-tracing, such as the Black tapestry, goes primarily through one paternal line with a few extensions for sisters, mothers, and daughters, but doesn't cover female ancestors beyond a generation or two. That, of course, is much easier to trace, but with the wizarding world's small population and emphasis on ancestry, they may have the resources to make it easy.

Harry's "defense" about hating Dursleys vs Muggles could be particularly interesting in light of the fact that Riddle only hated one Muggle -- his father -- for doing something horrible in abandoning them, and then transferred that to Muggles as a whole. Of course, Ernie and the other students couldn't know that, and Dumbledore knows Harry to well to consider that. However, it might lead Voldemort to think Harry might be able to turn on Muggles. (With the prophecy, though, it seems unlikely he'd try to recruit Harry, which I could easily see otherwise.)

Or how about a combination of both? Most people's wands are perfectly well behaved but Lockhart is crazy so his wand is out of control? A bit like the spectrum of dog owners, if you know what I mean.

This isn't really an unfair response. Potions are dangerous

It's also interesting to see that Snape has the antidote at hand. He anticipates that things will go wrong and is ready to deal with it. A firecracker in class *is* a bit much, though. Harry should have gotten into a lot of trouble for that.

Also, does Snape ever find out why Harry did this? Because if not (and if he does know it was Harry, as Harry thinks), add that to the list of legitimate reasons Snape has to dislike him.

I suspect he figures it out when 1) he figures out the Boomslang skin is missing and 2) gets called to make any Potions of Cat!Hermione.

Any thoughts on what really happened here? Did Lockhart ask, and if so, why? And why did Snape agree?

Snape had an overwhelming urge to smack Lockhart down hard? I rather think Snape was doing it under duress, because Harry notes that he looks at Lockhart quite nastily even before they get down to duelling.

Just to note, Harry's Tickling Charm looks harmless, but it's another apparently weak hex that can have horrible consequences. Tickling can cause the ticklee to faint from oxygen deprivation if it goes on too long.

'And in case you're getting ideas,' [Ernie] added hastily, 'I might tell you that you can trace my family back through nine generations of witches and warlocks and my blood's as pure as anyone's, so--' (150)

I note that at 12-years old, Ernie can trace his family back nine generation. Yes, he probably can't do it from memory, but the fact that he can indicates that it's not only Slytherins who care about purebloodedness.

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Page 1 of 3

CoS 11

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Part 1: Cups and Potions

Part 2: Duels and Ancestry

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