pauraque_bk | PoA 21

PoA 21

PoA 21: Hermione's Secret

Okay, that just sounds like a dirty mail-order catalog.

'Black had bewitched them, I saw it immediately. A Confundus Charm, to judge by their behaviour. [...] They weren't responsible for their actions. On the other hand, their interference might have permitted Black to escape [...] They've got away with a great deal before now ... I'm afraid it's given them a rather high opinion of themselves [...]' (283)

neotoma has pointed out, if Snape really thinks they were Confunded, he's being very charitable. However, given that he goes right on to blame them after saying they aren't to blame, I doubt that what he says here is entirely sincere. He's making himself appear charitable to the Minister.

'And yet -- is it good for [Harry] to be given so much special treatment? Personally I try to treat him like any other student[...]' (283)

Of course, this isn't entirely sincere either (or if it is, Snape is very unaware of his own behavior). However, I wouldn't be surprised if there was a kernel of truth in it: Failing to teach Harry self-control could prove extremely dangerous, not just to Harry, but to the world in general.

'[...]I bound and gagged Black, naturally, conjured stretchers and brought them all straight back to the castle.' (284)

While our heroes had no problem dragging Snape along with his head knocking against the ceiling (277), he gave them the consideration of stretchers. Admittedly, he wants to make a good impression on the authorities, but still.

I was puzzled at first why he gagged Sirius, but it makes sense: He didn't want him to be capable of an incantation.

'You surely don't believe a word of Black's story?' Snape whispered, his eyes fixed on Dumbledore's face.
'I wish to speak to Harry and Hermione alone,' Dumbledore repeated.
Snape took a step towards Dumbledore.
'Sirius Black showed he was capable of murder at the age of sixteen,' he breathed. 'You haven't forgotten that, Headmaster? You haven't forgotten that he once tried to kill me?'
'My memory is as good as it ever was, Severus,' said Dumbledore quietly. (286-287)

Ouch. Snape's desire for Dumbledore's support and approval is very much palpable here -- Snape is asking Dumbledore to choose between him and prodigal-son Sirius, and Dumbledore's choice is very clear.

Harry moved his head a few inches to get a clear view of the distant front doors. Dumbledore, Fudge, the old Committee member and Macnair the executioner were coming down the steps. (292)

'It was tied here!' said the executioner furiously. 'I saw it! Just here!'
'How extraordinary,' said Dumbledore. There was a note of amusement in his voice.
[...]
'Macnair, if Buckbeak has indeed been stolen, do you really think the thief will have led him away on foot?' said Dumbledore, still sounding amused. 'Search the skies, if you will ... Hagrid, I could do with a cup of tea. Or a large brandy.' (294)

We're pretty evidently supposed to think that this Dumbledore, Chapter16!Dumbledore, knows that it's Harry and Hermione who have made off with Buckbeak. If he doesn't, his reaction is very strange.

There was a swishing noise, and the thud of an axe. The executioner seemed to have swung it into the fence in anger. And then came the howling, and this time they could hear Hagrid's words through his sobs. (294)

This is around where I start to get a tachyon headache. It seems that even in Chapter 16, Buckbeak was never really executed, which is consistent with the way the time travel device is presented throughout the chapter.

'Here comes Lupin!' said Harry, as they saw another figure sprinting down the stone steps and haring towards the Willow. Harry looked up at the sky. Clouds were obscuring the moon completely. (296)

Again, this is nonsense. JKR's editor should have gotten this one.

'What happened to the other boy? Ron?' said Sirius urgently. (303)

As soon as Sirius is set to escape, his mind clears enough to think of Ron's safety. However, I suspect he's wondering if Peter's curse killed him, not whether he's all right after being dragged off and having his leg broken by Padfoot.

The time travel device is troublesome for a couple of reasons. One is that it's a deus ex machina -- groundwork is laid for it, in Hermione's exhaustion and odd class schedule, but... what does it have to do with the rest of the book?

Another is that it calls into question one of the primary themes of the series, that our choices make us who we are. Dumbledore warns them seriously that they must not be seen, they must not change anything but what he tells them, etc., but once they actually go back, there's no indication that they can change anything -- they're merely fulfilling the course that's already set for them. If they'd made any small accidental change -- any at all -- I'd have less of a problem with the whole thing.

Narratively, it's a stumbling block. The emotional climax is clearly the Shrieking Shack, and on first reading, I thought the book took a bit too long to end after that. After that catharsis, introducing a major plot point was somewhat exhausting.

My assumption is that the time travel element will be very important later on in the series -- the Knight2King theory, or something equally huge -- or else JKR wouldn't have bothered introducing it at all. But considering PoA as a stand-alone novel, this chapter just doesn't feel as tightly woven-in as the rest of the book.

Past re-read posts are here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Narratively, it's a stumbling block. The emotional climax is clearly the Shrieking Shack, and on first reading, I thought the book took a bit too long to end after that. After that catharsis, introducing a major plot point was somewhat exhausting

I agree. This is the only bit of the whole book I'm not happy with and for much the same reasons. I don't like the concept of the time-turner, it makes it too easy to just go back and change things. Ok, so it's essentially a book about a magical world but considering so much of the morality lesson is about making our own choices and acting correctly in the present then this sticks out oddly - it isn't as though readers can suddenly decide to go back and change things they have done.
and I agree it was too much after all the emotion of the Shrieking shack to stick this new idea here.

Snape's desire for Dumbledore's support and approval is very much palpable here -- Snape is asking Dumbledore to choose between him and prodigal-son Sirius, and Dumbledore's choice is very clear
I think this was where I really started to like Snape because I felt so deeply angry on his behalf. I agree that it's not the Order of Merlin that he's after so much as justice and the fact that his wishes/suggestions have once again been ignored and trampled on and done so in front of other people; he's being humiliated again. It's yet another example of Dumbledore's mishandling of someone's sensibilities. I always like to think he had a one-to-one with Severus later and calmed him down!

I always like to think he had a one-to-one with Severus later and calmed him down!

I really doubt this since Snape embarrassed Dumbledore by revealing Remus' secret after that. That's revenge if you ask me.

I really doubt this since Snape embarrassed Dumbledore by revealing Remus' secret after that. That's revenge if you ask me.

I don't think that was revenge against Dumbeldore- I think that was revenge against Remus and having to be the sucker for Dumbledore. Remeber, Dumbledore tries to convince Fudge that Remus was trying to save the children's life in the next chapter.

I always like to think he had a one-to-one with Severus later and calmed him down!

They must've had a talk at some point, since by the tame Snape and Sirius see each other again at the end of GoF, Snape has accepted, however grudgingly, that Sirius is innocent. But I have no idea if this conversation took place hours later or months later. (And man, would I have loved to be a fly on the wall for that scene.)

I felt so, so sorry for Snape here. For all his vengeful nastiness, he genuinely believed he was in the right, and had good cause to believe it. Unfortunately for him, he had missed most of the important bits of the Shrieking Shack revelations. And he asked Dumbledore to choose at a moment when the only acceptable choice was against him. Dumbledore was not going to hand Sirius over to the Dementors just to make Snape feel better. By losing his temper and forcing the issue in front of Fudge, Snape made his own humiliation inevitable. It makes my stomach hurt every time I reread those scenes.

Dumbledore was not going to hand Sirius over to the Dementors just to make Snape feel better. By losing his temper and forcing the issue in front of Fudge, Snape made his own humiliation inevitable. It makes my stomach hurt every time I reread those scenes.

Indeed! Self esteem or saving a man's soul? The choice is clear to me(and I like Severus!). But there are ways, and tehre are ways, as my mom from Brooklyn would say.
And there are long ranging consequences. Do you really think that Snape would have forgiven Dumbledore for lying to his face? Do you really think that after seeing how Dumbledore treated a member of his own and staff, and then finding out a Werewolf was on the grounds do you really think that Fudge would believe much of anything Dumbledore has to say about teh dark forces. If I were Fudge, I wouldn't- or treated everything this person said with a shake of salt.

Do you really think that Snape would have forgiven Dumbledore for lying to his face?

Absolutely not. Snape will carry that grudge to his grave, just as he carries every other grudge. But I'm not sure what else Dumbledore could've done with Fudge right there. I'm not generally given to defending Dumbledore, 'cause I think he's a manipulative old coot who treats his followers horribly, but I'm not sure he had a graceful way out of this particular situation. ("Graceful" in this instance meaning "preserving both Sirius' life and Snape's feelings.")

Do you really think that after seeing how Dumbledore treated a member of his own and staff, and then finding out a Werewolf was on the grounds do you really think that Fudge would believe much of anything Dumbledore has to say about teh dark forces.

Fudge didn't have any problems with Dumbledore's treatment of Snape. Remember, Fudge knows nothing about Dumbledore's history with Snape or Snape's history with Sirius. And most of the lies Dumbledore told were specifically for Fudge's benefit. So as far as Fudge was concerned, Dumbledore acted reasonably and Snape was totally unhinged.

The revelation about Remus is another matter entirely. It does seem, from OOP, that this severely weakened Dumbledore's relationship with Fudge, and may have contributed to Fudge's refusal to believe Dumbledore at the end of GoF. (Though Fudge's overall (lack of) character had a lot to do with that, too.) Of course, there probably wouldn't have *been* any public revelations about Remus if Dumbledore hadn't pissed off Snape, so it all interconnects in the end.

But there are ways, and tehre are ways,

Precisely. I'm not mad at Dumbledore for not handing Sirius to the Dementors just to make Snape feel better. But observe this:

Well, there you have it, Severus," said Dumbledore calmly. "Unless you
are suggesting that Harry and Hermione are able to be in two places at
once, I'm afraid I don't see any point in troubling them further."

Snape stood there, seething, staring from Fudge, who looked thoroughly
shocked at his behavior, to Dumbledore, whose eyes were twinkling behind his glasses.

Not only does Dumbledore lie right in Snape's face, he gives Harry a nice little twinkle while at it. I'm sure Snape saw that and Snape knew perfectly well that Dumbledore was behind what happened in facilitating Harry to do what he did.

Well, there you have it, Severus," said Dumbledore calmly. "Unless youare suggesting that Harry and Hermione are able to be in two places at once, I'm afraid I don't see any point in troubling them further."
I'm probably going to sound very dense here but it's only just occurred to me that of course this is Dumbledore warning Snape off; I had seen it before as just a 'there, there, calm down and shut up' thing. I realised that Snape knew Dumbledore had been up to something but not that he was so specific. At this point Snape will realise that the children have indeed been in two places at once, it all slots into place for him.
I can't decide if that makes me more annoyed for Snape or slightly pleased that at least Dumbledore has the goodness to let him know what's gone on. It's too late, I think I need to lie down!

I'm probably going to sound very dense here but it's only just occurred to me that of course this is Dumbledore warning Snape off

My reading is that when you combine that passage with this one:

'Sirius Black showed he was capable of murder at the age of sixteen,' he breathed. 'You haven't forgotten that, Headmaster? You haven't forgotten that he once tried to kill me?'
'My memory is as good as it ever was, Severus,' said Dumbledore quietly. (286-287)

You have Dumbledore pulling Snape's choke chain up short -- and since Snape thinks he's doing the *right thing* at the time, he's bewildered by Dumbledore's actions and very frustrated.

I think he spilled Lupin's werewolfism in the morning out of spite and frustration as well an actual concern for the students. From his perspective, Dumbledore had just proved that he wouldn't *do* anything about the dangerous criminal Black, so Snape thinks he HAS to act alone to protect the students from Lupin's reckless endangerment of their lives. The fact that by spilling the secret Snape destroys the career of someone he loathes is just more reason to do it, not less.

I can't decide if that makes me more annoyed for Snape or slightly pleased that at least Dumbledore has the goodness to let him know what's gone on.

I think this is where Snape's faith in Dumbledore starts to break down. This is the first major incident we see where Snape is acting absolutely correctly (with no mercy, but smack on the side of the law) yet Dumbledore cuts his feet out from under him.

Snape is very inflexible, and he wouldn't be able to understand why he is apparently being punished for acting *right*; that apparent rejection of his value seems to have spawned even more intrangiency in the following books. I'm not sure that he was ever told that Sirius was innocent (or would have believed it if he was told), but Snape probably thought by GoF that Dumbledore would chose Sirius over him, no matter what. I'm not surprised that Snape refused to persue teaching Harry Occlumency after the Pensieve incident in OotP -- from his perspective, no one was valuing his efforts, and without Dumbledore there to pressure him, he put his foot down.

Not only does he cut Snape's feet out from under him, he does so in front of Harry and Hermione. That's gotta hurt.

So, you are suggesting that Snape was able to put two and two together and realise just how it was that Dumbledore helped the kids save Sirius. How is that a good thing? At least until then Snape might have held on to an illusion that Potter had done it alone, he doesn't blame Dumbledore (though of course it would have been unthinkable in front of Fudge). I believe that by the time Dumbledore has Snape and Sirius shake hands Snape knows that Sirius was innocent of the crime he was imprisoned for at least, or simply knows that Dumbledore believes him to be innocent and that has to be enough for him. So there was an explanation later on but in the scene in question, with Dumbledore clearly enjoying Snape's humiliation and pain I don't see Dumbledore as coming too well out of this.

How is that a good thing? At least until then Snape might have held on to an illusion that Potter had done it alone
I just got the feeling that in his own (and, admittedly, very misguided) way, Dumbledore was letting Snape know that Harry had indeed managed to be in two places at a time and that he knew and Snape shouldn't need to go on any further because it was in hand and it was time he (Snape) let go of the argument. Does that make sense? I don't think Dumbledore meant to humiliate Snape deliberately, I think he was trying to help the situation but he seems to have quite a talent for riding rough-shod over the feelings of others and manages to insult and humiliate Snape all at once.

don't think Dumbledore meant to humiliate Snape deliberately,

This is Dumbledore's problem- his incredible lack of empathy. He is a person who is easily dazzled, and he does believe that he is do the right thing. But in this scene, he is clearly enjoying Snape's discomfortire, thinking that Severus "will get over it" to paraphrase what he says to Harry. Working backgwards from OOTP,you can see the structural strain ebgin right there. And by the way he says "You!" in GoF, Severus has not been told one damn thing.

The choice is clear to me(and I like Severus!). But there are ways, and tehre are ways, as my mom from Brooklyn would say.

Yes, and Dumbledore seems to take the wrong way with Snape a lot. Their personalities are so different, I think they're both making assumptions about how the other thinks and will react, and then get rude shocks when that doesn't pan out.

And there are long ranging consequences. Do you really think that Snape would have forgiven Dumbledore for lying to his face?

No, of course not. This is Snape, Grudge-holder Extraordinair. I do wonder if Snape knows *how* much Dumbledore did that night in PoA. At the moment, I think Snape only thinks that Dumbledore cut his feet out from under him in the Infirmary. If Snape realizes that Dumbledore not only did that but also orchestrated Sirius' escape to the extent he did, I think it would destroy Snape.

It's bad enough not to be believed when you are in the right. But to be deliberately set up to be humiliated? By someone you trust so much? Snape would NOT be able to forgive Dumbledore.

Do you really think that after seeing how Dumbledore treated a member of his own and staff, and then finding out a Werewolf was on the grounds do you really think that Fudge would believe much of anything Dumbledore has to say about teh dark forces. If I were Fudge, I wouldn't- or treated everything this person said with a shake of salt.

Not only does is there the werewolf issue, but Fudge sees Snape fly apart in the most disturbing manner. That had to make an impression on him -- and quite possibly accounts for why Snape revealing the Dark Mark at the end of GoF failed to convince Fudge that the Dark Lord was back. Fudge had already seen Snape go off the rails when he overreacted to Sirius Black's escape -- why would Fudge interpret Snape's reaction to the reappearance of the Dark Mark as anything other that Snape flipping out *again*?

In other words, Dumbledore's actions at the end of PoA bites him in the tuckus at the end of GoF.

In other words, Dumbledore's actions at the end of PoA bites him in the tuckus at the end of GoF.

Precisely. As Dumbledore says at the end, he was blind to Moody's actions until it was almost too late. I wonder if Severus made a nuisance of himself during the unseen course of GoF, saying to Dumbledore : "There is something not quite right with this fellow. I can feel it!" And Dumbeldore just brushed him off. I bet you ten dollars that is what happened.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

PoA 21

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject