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pauraque_bkPoA 21: Hermione's Secret
Okay, that just sounds like a dirty mail-order catalog.
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neotoma has pointed out, if Snape really thinks they were Confunded, he's being very charitable. However, given that he goes right on to blame them after saying they aren't to blame, I doubt that what he says here is entirely sincere. He's making himself appear charitable to the Minister.
I was puzzled at first why he gagged Sirius, but it makes sense: He didn't want him to be capable of an incantation.
The time travel device is troublesome for a couple of reasons. One is that it's a deus ex machina -- groundwork is laid for it, in Hermione's exhaustion and odd class schedule, but... what does it have to do with the rest of the book?
Another is that it calls into question one of the primary themes of the series, that our choices make us who we are. Dumbledore warns them seriously that they must not be seen, they must not change anything but what he tells them, etc., but once they actually go back, there's no indication that they can change anything -- they're merely fulfilling the course that's already set for them. If they'd made any small accidental change -- any at all -- I'd have less of a problem with the whole thing.
Narratively, it's a stumbling block. The emotional climax is clearly the Shrieking Shack, and on first reading, I thought the book took a bit too long to end after that. After that catharsis, introducing a major plot point was somewhat exhausting.
My assumption is that the time travel element will be very important later on in the series -- the Knight2King theory, or something equally huge -- or else JKR wouldn't have bothered introducing it at all. But considering PoA as a stand-alone novel, this chapter just doesn't feel as tightly woven-in as the rest of the book.
Past re-read posts are here.
Okay, that just sounds like a dirty mail-order catalog.
'Black had bewitched them, I saw it immediately. A Confundus Charm, to judge by their behaviour. [...] They weren't responsible for their actions. On the other hand, their interference might have permitted Black to escape [...] They've got away with a great deal before now ... I'm afraid it's given them a rather high opinion of themselves [...]' (283)As
neotoma has pointed out, if Snape really thinks they were Confunded, he's being very charitable. However, given that he goes right on to blame them after saying they aren't to blame, I doubt that what he says here is entirely sincere. He's making himself appear charitable to the Minister.'And yet -- is it good for [Harry] to be given so much special treatment? Personally I try to treat him like any other student[...]' (283)Of course, this isn't entirely sincere either (or if it is, Snape is very unaware of his own behavior). However, I wouldn't be surprised if there was a kernel of truth in it: Failing to teach Harry self-control could prove extremely dangerous, not just to Harry, but to the world in general.
'[...]I bound and gagged Black, naturally, conjured stretchers and brought them all straight back to the castle.' (284)While our heroes had no problem dragging Snape along with his head knocking against the ceiling (277), he gave them the consideration of stretchers. Admittedly, he wants to make a good impression on the authorities, but still.
I was puzzled at first why he gagged Sirius, but it makes sense: He didn't want him to be capable of an incantation.
'You surely don't believe a word of Black's story?' Snape whispered, his eyes fixed on Dumbledore's face.Ouch. Snape's desire for Dumbledore's support and approval is very much palpable here -- Snape is asking Dumbledore to choose between him and prodigal-son Sirius, and Dumbledore's choice is very clear.
'I wish to speak to Harry and Hermione alone,' Dumbledore repeated.
Snape took a step towards Dumbledore.
'Sirius Black showed he was capable of murder at the age of sixteen,' he breathed. 'You haven't forgotten that, Headmaster? You haven't forgotten that he once tried to kill me?'
'My memory is as good as it ever was, Severus,' said Dumbledore quietly. (286-287)
Harry moved his head a few inches to get a clear view of the distant front doors. Dumbledore, Fudge, the old Committee member and Macnair the executioner were coming down the steps. (292)We're pretty evidently supposed to think that this Dumbledore, Chapter16!Dumbledore, knows that it's Harry and Hermione who have made off with Buckbeak. If he doesn't, his reaction is very strange.
'It was tied here!' said the executioner furiously. 'I saw it! Just here!'
'How extraordinary,' said Dumbledore. There was a note of amusement in his voice.
[...]
'Macnair, if Buckbeak has indeed been stolen, do you really think the thief will have led him away on foot?' said Dumbledore, still sounding amused. 'Search the skies, if you will ... Hagrid, I could do with a cup of tea. Or a large brandy.' (294)
There was a swishing noise, and the thud of an axe. The executioner seemed to have swung it into the fence in anger. And then came the howling, and this time they could hear Hagrid's words through his sobs. (294)This is around where I start to get a tachyon headache. It seems that even in Chapter 16, Buckbeak was never really executed, which is consistent with the way the time travel device is presented throughout the chapter.
'Here comes Lupin!' said Harry, as they saw another figure sprinting down the stone steps and haring towards the Willow. Harry looked up at the sky. Clouds were obscuring the moon completely. (296)Again, this is nonsense. JKR's editor should have gotten this one.
'What happened to the other boy? Ron?' said Sirius urgently. (303)As soon as Sirius is set to escape, his mind clears enough to think of Ron's safety. However, I suspect he's wondering if Peter's curse killed him, not whether he's all right after being dragged off and having his leg broken by Padfoot.
The time travel device is troublesome for a couple of reasons. One is that it's a deus ex machina -- groundwork is laid for it, in Hermione's exhaustion and odd class schedule, but... what does it have to do with the rest of the book?
Another is that it calls into question one of the primary themes of the series, that our choices make us who we are. Dumbledore warns them seriously that they must not be seen, they must not change anything but what he tells them, etc., but once they actually go back, there's no indication that they can change anything -- they're merely fulfilling the course that's already set for them. If they'd made any small accidental change -- any at all -- I'd have less of a problem with the whole thing.
Narratively, it's a stumbling block. The emotional climax is clearly the Shrieking Shack, and on first reading, I thought the book took a bit too long to end after that. After that catharsis, introducing a major plot point was somewhat exhausting.
My assumption is that the time travel element will be very important later on in the series -- the Knight2King theory, or something equally huge -- or else JKR wouldn't have bothered introducing it at all. But considering PoA as a stand-alone novel, this chapter just doesn't feel as tightly woven-in as the rest of the book.
Past re-read posts are here.
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no subject
Date: 2004-05-28 04:44 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-05-28 05:20 am (UTC)Thanks!
Date: 2004-05-28 07:09 am (UTC)Ooh, what was that? Was that the "Will the Time Turner feature again?" question?
Re: Thanks!
Date: 2004-05-28 10:44 am (UTC)Blast! I can't remember... >_< I know she said something not-quite-so-dramatic about Snape falling in love, like 'ha ha who would love snape?? but really, i can't tell you that.' That... woman!!!!!!! She is SO EVIL!!! All down on slytherins... Hello, you are writing a seven-part series and give the most sneaky responses to interviews...! And if you don't call that cunning and ambitious...!
Re: Thanks!
She says that about the reason why Dumbledore won't give Snape the DADA position...
And speaking about interesting things J.K. says in interviews, this is kind of neat, and not something I've seen before:
Newsweek Web Exclusice 2003
J.K. Rowling Interview
"Do you have favorite characters?
I really like Snape. I mean, I wouldn’t want to have a dinner with him, but as a character he’s great because he’s complicated and quite nasty."
(taken from this site: http://www.designerpotions.com/ss/ssrowlingonsnape.html)
This is the second time she's mentioned Snape as being on of her favorite characters...
Re: Thanks!
Date: 2004-05-28 04:49 pm (UTC)uf ;a aaaaaarrrrrrg.
Still, there is the fifth book. The fifth book... Yes. It confirmed so much...
My meaning Our, all Snape-lovers, all Slytherin-enthusiasts...
Order of Merlin
Date: 2004-05-28 05:18 am (UTC)"...it was lucky you were there, Snape...."
"Thank you, Minister."
"Order of Merlin, Second Class, I'd say. First Class, if I can wangle it!"
"Thank you very much indeed, Minister."
Why, oh why does everybody interprets this conversation as meaning that Snape really wants the Order of Merlin and it's one of the reasons for doing what he does? What do people see in Snape's words other than a traditional expression of gratitude for a reward offered? If he didn't care about the Order, would he say "No, Minister, I don't want any reward?"? Could he even say that without antagonizing Fudge?
I honestly don't understand why everybody would think that the Order of Merlin is what Snape is after. Of course, he wouldn't object to receiving it, I think, but his primary motive is his hatred for Black and his desire to get revenge. Moreover, Snape is a spy, which is a thankless job, - the work of a spy is rarely publicly acknowledged. And he obviously knows it. So, he does not seem to be the sort of man who would crave recognition from the authorities. Dumbledore is another matter entirely: Snape certainly wants to be approved and supported by him. But Fudge? I don't think so.
Re: Order of Merlin
Date: 2004-05-28 11:49 am (UTC)He wants to see Sirius Black given the awful Dementors kiss. That's his first motivation- his revenge. Doing in the pervue of the law and being recognised is a bonus.
Re: Order of Merlin
Date: 2004-05-28 01:44 pm (UTC)It's not just this conversation. It's all Lupin's fault:
"Why?" said Harry. "The Ministry of Magic don't think you were helping
Sirius, do they?"
Lupin crossed to the door and closed it behind Harry.
"No. Professor Dumbledore managed to convince Fudge that I was trying tosave your lives." He sighed. "That was the final straw for Severus. I
think the loss of the Order of Merlin hit him hard.
I don't know about everyone else but I certainly won't take Lupin's word for it.
Re: Order of Merlin
Date: 2004-05-28 04:16 pm (UTC)Re: Order of Merlin
Date: 2004-05-29 12:32 am (UTC)Really, it's sad that Lupin, who we are obviously supposed to like, is a less reliable source of information than Snape (biased jerk though he is, always speaks truthfully), who we aren't supposed to like.
Re: Order of Merlin
Date: 2004-05-29 03:19 am (UTC)He's pissed off that Sirius isn't Kissed, but I think, actually, that he's even more upset that Dumbledore chooses Sirius over him.
no subject
Date: 2004-05-28 06:29 am (UTC)I agree. This is the only bit of the whole book I'm not happy with and for much the same reasons. I don't like the concept of the time-turner, it makes it too easy to just go back and change things. Ok, so it's essentially a book about a magical world but considering so much of the morality lesson is about making our own choices and acting correctly in the present then this sticks out oddly - it isn't as though readers can suddenly decide to go back and change things they have done.
and I agree it was too much after all the emotion of the Shrieking shack to stick this new idea here.
Snape's desire for Dumbledore's support and approval is very much palpable here -- Snape is asking Dumbledore to choose between him and prodigal-son Sirius, and Dumbledore's choice is very clear
I think this was where I really started to like Snape because I felt so deeply angry on his behalf. I agree that it's not the Order of Merlin that he's after so much as justice and the fact that his wishes/suggestions have once again been ignored and trampled on and done so in front of other people; he's being humiliated again. It's yet another example of Dumbledore's mishandling of someone's sensibilities. I always like to think he had a one-to-one with Severus later and calmed him down!
no subject
Date: 2004-05-28 10:13 am (UTC)I really doubt this since Snape embarrassed Dumbledore by revealing Remus' secret after that. That's revenge if you ask me.
no subject
Date: 2004-05-28 11:52 am (UTC)I don't think that was revenge against Dumbeldore- I think that was revenge against Remus and having to be the sucker for Dumbledore. Remeber, Dumbledore tries to convince Fudge that Remus was trying to save the children's life in the next chapter.
no subject
Date: 2004-05-28 10:59 am (UTC)They must've had a talk at some point, since by the tame Snape and Sirius see each other again at the end of GoF, Snape has accepted, however grudgingly, that Sirius is innocent. But I have no idea if this conversation took place hours later or months later. (And man, would I have loved to be a fly on the wall for that scene.)
I felt so, so sorry for Snape here. For all his vengeful nastiness, he genuinely believed he was in the right, and had good cause to believe it. Unfortunately for him, he had missed most of the important bits of the Shrieking Shack revelations. And he asked Dumbledore to choose at a moment when the only acceptable choice was against him. Dumbledore was not going to hand Sirius over to the Dementors just to make Snape feel better. By losing his temper and forcing the issue in front of Fudge, Snape made his own humiliation inevitable. It makes my stomach hurt every time I reread those scenes.
no subject
Date: 2004-05-28 12:05 pm (UTC)Indeed! Self esteem or saving a man's soul? The choice is clear to me(and I like Severus!). But there are ways, and tehre are ways, as my mom from Brooklyn would say.
And there are long ranging consequences. Do you really think that Snape would have forgiven Dumbledore for lying to his face? Do you really think that after seeing how Dumbledore treated a member of his own and staff, and then finding out a Werewolf was on the grounds do you really think that Fudge would believe much of anything Dumbledore has to say about teh dark forces. If I were Fudge, I wouldn't- or treated everything this person said with a shake of salt.
no subject
Date: 2004-05-28 12:41 pm (UTC)Absolutely not. Snape will carry that grudge to his grave, just as he carries every other grudge. But I'm not sure what else Dumbledore could've done with Fudge right there. I'm not generally given to defending Dumbledore, 'cause I think he's a manipulative old coot who treats his followers horribly, but I'm not sure he had a graceful way out of this particular situation. ("Graceful" in this instance meaning "preserving both Sirius' life and Snape's feelings.")
Do you really think that after seeing how Dumbledore treated a member of his own and staff, and then finding out a Werewolf was on the grounds do you really think that Fudge would believe much of anything Dumbledore has to say about teh dark forces.
Fudge didn't have any problems with Dumbledore's treatment of Snape. Remember, Fudge knows nothing about Dumbledore's history with Snape or Snape's history with Sirius. And most of the lies Dumbledore told were specifically for Fudge's benefit. So as far as Fudge was concerned, Dumbledore acted reasonably and Snape was totally unhinged.
The revelation about Remus is another matter entirely. It does seem, from OOP, that this severely weakened Dumbledore's relationship with Fudge, and may have contributed to Fudge's refusal to believe Dumbledore at the end of GoF. (Though Fudge's overall (lack of) character had a lot to do with that, too.) Of course, there probably wouldn't have *been* any public revelations about Remus if Dumbledore hadn't pissed off Snape, so it all interconnects in the end.
no subject
Date: 2004-05-28 01:14 pm (UTC)Precisely. I'm not mad at Dumbledore for not handing Sirius to the Dementors just to make Snape feel better. But observe this:
Well, there you have it, Severus," said Dumbledore calmly. "Unless you
are suggesting that Harry and Hermione are able to be in two places at
once, I'm afraid I don't see any point in troubling them further."
Snape stood there, seething, staring from Fudge, who looked thoroughly
shocked at his behavior, to Dumbledore, whose eyes were twinkling behind his glasses.
Not only does Dumbledore lie right in Snape's face, he gives Harry a nice little twinkle while at it. I'm sure Snape saw that and Snape knew perfectly well that Dumbledore was behind what happened in facilitating Harry to do what he did.
no subject
Date: 2004-05-28 03:41 pm (UTC)I'm probably going to sound very dense here but it's only just occurred to me that of course this is Dumbledore warning Snape off; I had seen it before as just a 'there, there, calm down and shut up' thing. I realised that Snape knew Dumbledore had been up to something but not that he was so specific. At this point Snape will realise that the children have indeed been in two places at once, it all slots into place for him.
I can't decide if that makes me more annoyed for Snape or slightly pleased that at least Dumbledore has the goodness to let him know what's gone on. It's too late, I think I need to lie down!
no subject
Date: 2004-05-28 11:43 pm (UTC)I'm probably going to sound very dense here but it's only just occurred to me that of course this is Dumbledore warning Snape off
My reading is that when you combine that passage with this one:
'Sirius Black showed he was capable of murder at the age of sixteen,' he breathed. 'You haven't forgotten that, Headmaster? You haven't forgotten that he once tried to kill me?'
'My memory is as good as it ever was, Severus,' said Dumbledore quietly. (286-287)
You have Dumbledore pulling Snape's choke chain up short -- and since Snape thinks he's doing the *right thing* at the time, he's bewildered by Dumbledore's actions and very frustrated.
I think he spilled Lupin's werewolfism in the morning out of spite and frustration as well an actual concern for the students. From his perspective, Dumbledore had just proved that he wouldn't *do* anything about the dangerous criminal Black, so Snape thinks he HAS to act alone to protect the students from Lupin's reckless endangerment of their lives. The fact that by spilling the secret Snape destroys the career of someone he loathes is just more reason to do it, not less.
I can't decide if that makes me more annoyed for Snape or slightly pleased that at least Dumbledore has the goodness to let him know what's gone on.
I think this is where Snape's faith in Dumbledore starts to break down. This is the first major incident we see where Snape is acting absolutely correctly (with no mercy, but smack on the side of the law) yet Dumbledore cuts his feet out from under him.
Snape is very inflexible, and he wouldn't be able to understand why he is apparently being punished for acting *right*; that apparent rejection of his value seems to have spawned even more intrangiency in the following books. I'm not sure that he was ever told that Sirius was innocent (or would have believed it if he was told), but Snape probably thought by GoF that Dumbledore would chose Sirius over him, no matter what. I'm not surprised that Snape refused to persue teaching Harry Occlumency after the Pensieve incident in OotP -- from his perspective, no one was valuing his efforts, and without Dumbledore there to pressure him, he put his foot down.
no subject
Date: 2004-05-29 03:22 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-05-29 06:07 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-05-29 03:41 pm (UTC)I just got the feeling that in his own (and, admittedly, very misguided) way, Dumbledore was letting Snape know that Harry had indeed managed to be in two places at a time and that he knew and Snape shouldn't need to go on any further because it was in hand and it was time he (Snape) let go of the argument. Does that make sense? I don't think Dumbledore meant to humiliate Snape deliberately, I think he was trying to help the situation but he seems to have quite a talent for riding rough-shod over the feelings of others and manages to insult and humiliate Snape all at once.
no subject
Date: 2004-05-29 10:31 pm (UTC)This is Dumbledore's problem- his incredible lack of empathy. He is a person who is easily dazzled, and he does believe that he is do the right thing. But in this scene, he is clearly enjoying Snape's discomfortire, thinking that Severus "will get over it" to paraphrase what he says to Harry. Working backgwards from OOTP,you can see the structural strain ebgin right there. And by the way he says "You!" in GoF, Severus has not been told one damn thing.
no subject
Date: 2004-05-29 12:29 am (UTC)Yes, and Dumbledore seems to take the wrong way with Snape a lot. Their personalities are so different, I think they're both making assumptions about how the other thinks and will react, and then get rude shocks when that doesn't pan out.
And there are long ranging consequences. Do you really think that Snape would have forgiven Dumbledore for lying to his face?
No, of course not. This is Snape, Grudge-holder Extraordinair. I do wonder if Snape knows *how* much Dumbledore did that night in PoA. At the moment, I think Snape only thinks that Dumbledore cut his feet out from under him in the Infirmary. If Snape realizes that Dumbledore not only did that but also orchestrated Sirius' escape to the extent he did, I think it would destroy Snape.
It's bad enough not to be believed when you are in the right. But to be deliberately set up to be humiliated? By someone you trust so much? Snape would NOT be able to forgive Dumbledore.
Do you really think that after seeing how Dumbledore treated a member of his own and staff, and then finding out a Werewolf was on the grounds do you really think that Fudge would believe much of anything Dumbledore has to say about teh dark forces. If I were Fudge, I wouldn't- or treated everything this person said with a shake of salt.
Not only does is there the werewolf issue, but Fudge sees Snape fly apart in the most disturbing manner. That had to make an impression on him -- and quite possibly accounts for why Snape revealing the Dark Mark at the end of GoF failed to convince Fudge that the Dark Lord was back. Fudge had already seen Snape go off the rails when he overreacted to Sirius Black's escape -- why would Fudge interpret Snape's reaction to the reappearance of the Dark Mark as anything other that Snape flipping out *again*?
In other words, Dumbledore's actions at the end of PoA bites him in the tuckus at the end of GoF.
no subject
Date: 2004-05-29 03:33 pm (UTC)Precisely. As Dumbledore says at the end, he was blind to Moody's actions until it was almost too late. I wonder if Severus made a nuisance of himself during the unseen course of GoF, saying to Dumbledore : "There is something not quite right with this fellow. I can feel it!" And Dumbeldore just brushed him off. I bet you ten dollars that is what happened.
On choices and how they make us who we are...
Date: 2004-05-28 12:00 pm (UTC)Actaully, it does not. See, the kids have the nifty trick here in the book of choosing to go back and save Sirius. But note taht later, in OOTP, the past will not be kept at bay, and unless there is a Guardian of Forever, people choices still continue to haunt them. Snape does not chooses to forgive his past and trust a young person who needs his help, Sirius and Remus choose to view Snape with contempt, Dumbledore chooses to go on arrogantly, not trust Harry and not see that maybe Snape's and Sirius' emotional states were astonishingly fragile. No time turner can take away courses of thinking that lead to actions.
Re: On choices and how they make us who we are...
Date: 2004-05-30 01:25 pm (UTC)If Harry and Hermione have complete free will, what are the odds of them doing *everything exactly the same* as the first time when they don't even know what *happened* the first time?
Re: On choices and how they make us who we are...
Date: 2004-05-30 03:56 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-05-28 01:00 pm (UTC)The question is, of course, how will it show up, and to what purpose? And what, if anything, was it's greater purpose in the earlier parts of the book?
I think the answer to the second question has to do with Hermione. Because of her sleepiness, she did out-of-character things that we later see as very much a part of what Hermione is willing and capable of. Slapping Draco, yelling at Trelawney and walking out of class - these things are not what 11- or 12- year old Hermione would have done in those situations, but 14- and especially 15- year old Hermione would have. Draco's lucky that she lost her cool at this point and not later on - she would have toasted him.
Her unwillingness to test the limits of what she could do with the Time-Turner is evidence, however, of her restraint at this point. She could get more sleep, for instance, if she turned back time in the mornings. But she doesn't. She could have "saved" Scabbers, she could have found out how Sirius was getting into the castle, and any number of other things. The importance of *not* doing those things wasn't really impressed on her - it was just the idea that changing time could be dangerous that stopped her. The idea of breaking the law. Dumbledore might have given McGonagall the idea to let her have the Time-Turner as a way of seeing what she would do with that kind of power in her hands every day. And at the end, showing her that sometimes breaking the law and bending the rules can be necessary to save people or otherwise do good is a way of letting Hermione loosen up a bit, and ultimately unleash the more "brilliant but scary" side of herself.
Overall, the Time-Turner as the major plot device in this book (other than the Map, and Animagus tranfiguration) serves as a clue to the major theme of this book - looking into the past. In order for the series to move forward, for Voldemort to return and for war to break out in OotP, the past has to be dealt with. Sirius' return and eventual death are what distinguish this war from the first. Harry is not James - from this point on, that has to be stressed again and again, and with book 6, he gets to move past that part. The Time-Turner is a metaphor for the way time changes things and evens the playing field.
no subject
Date: 2004-05-28 02:02 pm (UTC)And I do think that the time-turner events here are an important part of that progression. Harry has spent the past three years being told by other people that he's just like his father. Sometimes it embarrasses him, but he's begun to believe it himself.
Only by seeing his time-displaced self does he get the opportunity to see that similarity as an outside observer might. And he mistakes himself for James. And then he gets to put his feet in the other guy's shoes, when he discovers it's him. Ultimately it allows him to get over the Harry-is-James-reborn thing and get back to making the best possible job of being Harry. It allows him to find Sirius's harking on about the past and mistaking him for his father in OotP disturbing and unsettling, rather than a compliment.
Also, it gives him the confidence to finally pull off the Patronus spell properly, because he now knows he can and there's no room for self-doubt, even if the spell is supposed to be too advanced for his current level of magical proficiency. That's important for later books, because Harry is not the world's best student, so the things he's going to excel in and pursue obsessively are going to be the things that he has a proven knack for.
(I have more to say on the subject of time travel as espoused by PoA, but am somewhat sleep deprived so will try to get around to it tomorrow when I'm feeling more coherent.)
Snape and Dumbledore
Date: 2004-05-28 04:05 pm (UTC)Snape has suspected since the first time Black entered the castle that Lupin is somehow helping him get in. The one time he speaks of this to Dumbledore, though, he is dismissed by him with a look that Harry (who overhears the conversation from his sleeping bag) reads as saying "the subject is closed;" and this is not the most observant of kids.
Also throughout the book, Lupin and Snape seem to antagonize each other, with Lupin playing no small part in this (I went on long rant on this on my LJ, too long to include here, but Lupin more than does his part to aggravate Snape, in my opinion, though he's polite and pleasant to his face).
And then comes this chapter, where Snape, for all he knows, is finally vindicated. Having been unconscious for the crucial part of Lupin's explanation, he still believes Black to be a murderer and Lupin his accomplice. Instead of an explanation, and maybe even some recognition for his part in saving the kids' lives, Dumbledore stands there and twinkles (as was mentioned in a comment above). He gives the impression that he finds the whole situation funny.
I would also like to think, like
Dumbledore has said more than once that he trusts Snape. It seems to me, though, that Snape has to work very hard and put up with quite a lot to keep that trust. And this is after many years of having worked for Dumbledore and been, as far as we know, more than trustworthy. I think he justifies telling Lupin's secret partly by the fact that Lupin irresponsibly forgot to take his potion, and partly by Dumbledore's failure (again!) to protect his students adequately from the werewolf.
Re: Snape and Dumbledore
Date: 2004-05-29 12:08 am (UTC)Exactly. This is where I think *Snape* starts losing his faith in Dumbeldore, and begins to question him -- when Dumbledore publicly undercuts him and disbelieves him. Faux-Moody's accusation in GoF (in "The Egg and the Eye") upsets Snape so much because Snape actually has reason to believe that Dumbledore doesn't trust him. By OotP, Snape is at the point where he will defy Dumbledore's orders (at least when Dumbledore isn't there standing over him) when he throws Harry out of his office.
That statement, and Dumbledore's words to Snape in this chapter, sound like a barely veiled way of saying "you owe me, you have secrets of your own, so do as you're told and don't question my decisions."
I think Dumbledore took exactly the wrong tactic with Snape in this chapter. Shutting him up was effective, but told Snape that his efforts and loyalty were worth less than persuing the law and capturing a known murderer. Since Snape needs to be respected and valued, Dumbledore managed to convey that he was neither in one quick statement.
I don't know how else Dumbledore could have handled the situation, but it makes me think that for all his charisma, the Headmaster has a very superficial understanding of other people. Later revelations in OotP about Dumbledore's handling of the Prefect postion -- giving it to Lupin when he was so unable to handle it, and giving it to Ron over Harry for weak reasons (either Dean or Neville would have been better choices, imo) -- makes me wonder how the heck Dumbledore got to be so respected anyway.
Are wizards that bad at picking leaders? Or that blinded by war-heroism? Or has Dumbledore let all his press after defeating Grindelwald go to his head and degrade whatever talent with people he used to have?
Re: Snape and Dumbledore
Date: 2004-05-29 07:21 am (UTC)and this has another potentially dangerous outcome if Snape doesn't have a *very* good reason for sticking with the Order. I don't personally believe that Snape will ever turn back to Voldemort and the DE crowd but Dumbledore doesn't exactly give him a lot of reason not to. In a more simplified and less life-or-death situation, if I were Snape I'd be tempted to tell Dumbledore where to put his Sherbert Lemons the next time!
Re: Snape and Dumbledore
Date: 2004-05-29 08:32 am (UTC)I don't know. All I know is that Dumbledore's recklessness in leaving things for the kids to get on with, without someone watching over their movements, concerned me as early as PS/SS. And his errors in judgement, his inability to read and handle people like Snape and Harry, have concerned me more and more with each book. All the more so because they're not just a couple of slightly prickly personalities who've had personal issues in their lives that require them to be handled with care, they're also people who because of their background and talents are important to the Order and its chances of success against Voldemort. Losing their confidence completely could be disastrous. Of course, it's always possible that at some point in book six or seven the two of them will find common ground in their disappointment in how Dumbledore has repaid their faith and loyalty, and finally achieve some measure of rapport. :-)
I too think that the prefect appointments weren't particularly well handled by the school, although as fifth year prefects they're still the lowest on the totem pole and to some extent therefore those appointments could be seen as being experiments... where the character-building of the kids' reaction to who does and doesn't get given that authority is more important than actually appointing the most effective kids to the job. So Remus probably got made prefect as much to make James and Sirius think about why they hadn't been as because he might be able to keep them under control. Ron got it because he needed a morale boost; Harry didn't because he'd already had his Quidditch triumph and the TriWizarding tournament and needed to learn to take a back seat to others from time to time.
It'll be interesting to see whether there are more than two prefects per house in the sixth and seventh years.
Re: Snape and Dumbledore
Date: 2004-05-29 01:59 pm (UTC)Yes, to be fair, with Snape in the state he was in there was little Dumbledore could say that would not sound dismissive and patronizing. He doesn't even try, though. I guess I'm a less charitable person when it comes to Dumbledore, so I would say he doesn't care to understand other people. As long as he knows enough about them to be able to effectively control/manipulate them, that is enough for him. He seems to give Snape just enough respect and recognition to keep him loyal. I guess my opinion of Dumbledore has gone very much downhill since OOTP...
And thank you, by the way, for reminding me about the Faux!Moody scene in GOF! This is off-topic but I've been thinking about Snape's role as a "spy" for the order, and this is more evidence for me that Voldemort knows exactly where Snape's loyalty is - he would have gotten a full report from Crouch Jr.
Re: Snape and Dumbledore
Date: 2004-05-30 03:37 am (UTC)What would Crouch have told him? Dumbledore didn't spill the beans about Snape at Crouch's trial, and given that Kakaroff tried to trade Snape's name at *his* trial, it wasn't known among the incarcerated DEs that Snape had turned on them.
Crouch never meets up with Voldemort again after he comes to school. I suppose they could have been in contact some other way, though.
Re: Snape and Dumbledore
Date: 2004-05-30 10:46 am (UTC)But you're right, Crouch was Kissed at the end of the book, wasn't he? He never went back to Voldemort (I love when I forget big stuff like this!) Voldemort knew of Crouch's plan and I guess they could have communicated throughout that year - but we don't know, which leaves the big question of what Voldemort knows about Snape still unanswered.
Re: Snape and Dumbledore
Date: 2004-05-29 10:54 pm (UTC)Another thing- about age: Severus is about what, 38? There is a time is a man's (or womans) life when they start to cut away from there their parental figures, and it happens at weird times- either in the early 20's or their late 30s. And JKR is incredibly perceptive in showing this strain. Severus can fight Voldie because DEs are Teh Suckeh. But he does not need to have blind obedience to Dumbledore- not anymore.
no subject
Date: 2005-01-08 02:38 pm (UTC)Okay, that just sounds like a dirty mail-order catalog.
Snicker! But on a more serious note, the title implies Hermione has only one secret, whereas I see her as keeping a lot of secrets from Harry and Ron, in POA and elsewhere.
no subject
Date: 2005-01-08 04:48 pm (UTC)I agree there's more to Hermione than meets the eye. What sort of secrets do you think she's keeping?
Hermione Granger and the Chamber of Secrets
Date: 2005-01-09 04:10 pm (UTC)Or "The Woes of Mrs. Weasley."
I agree there's more to Hermione than meets the eye. What sort of secrets do you think she's keeping?
Oh, that's a hard one to answer, esp since the books are mostly from Harry's perspective. So there are some secrets that she keeps for awhile-- like her capture of Rita Skeeter-- but reveals eventually. When I think of other secrets that we know she keeps, I mostly think of ones that are other people's secrets, Lupin's, Ginny's, etc. Of unknown secrets, I think there must be things she's learned from her reading and observation that she's not at this time revealing.
And from a multiple-shipper's view, she's certainly being secretive about whom she actually fancies. ;-)