CoS 9

[pauraque_bk]

CoS 9: The Writing on the Wall

Snape loomed behind them [as Dumbledore examined Mrs Norris], half in shadow, wearing a most peculiar expression: it was as though he was trying hard not to smile. (108)

What's this about? I'm surprised Harry didn't immediately jump to suspecting Snape was somehow involved in the attack.

'He did it, he did it!' Filch spat, his pouchy face purpling. 'You saw what he wrote on the wall! He found -- in my office -- he knows I'm a -- I'm a --' Filch's face worked horribly. 'He knows I'm a Squib!' he finished. (108-109)

So, Squibs are indeed considered "enemies of the heir". I'd wondered. Filch is accusing Harry of a hate crime... and the petrification of Mrs Norris really was one.

I'm not clear on how Squibs get lumped in with Muggleborns; by the logic that Binns attributes to Salazar, they're not a threat. Unless there was some sense that intermarriage between Squibs and normal wizards would dilute the blood, so they should be ostracized?

[Snape:] 'It might be a good idea if he were deprived of certain privileges until he is ready to tell us the whole story. I personally feel he should be taken off the Gryffindor Quidditch team until he is ready to be honest.'
'Really, Severus,' said Professor McGonagall sharply. 'I see no reason to stop the boy playing Quidditch. This cat wasn't hit over the head with a broomstick[...]' (109)

Heh.

Snape is a bit Quidditch-mad, isn't he? But maybe not so much an enthusiasm for sport as an enthusiasm to see his House win at something -- and Harry lose.

Dumbledore was giving Harry a seaching look. His twinkling light-blue gaze made Harry feel as though he was being X-rayed. (110)

Legilimency foreshadowing again.

'And what on earth's a Squib?' said Harry.
To his surprise, Ron stifled a snigger.
'Well -- it's not funny really -- but as it's Filch...' he said. 'A Squib is someone who was born into a wizarding family but hasn't got any magic powers. Kind of the opposite of Muggle-born wizards, but Squibs are quite unusual. If Filch's trying to learn magic from a Kwikspell course, I reckon he must be a Squib[...]' (110-111)

This seems to go against some of arclevel's ideas about Squibs. The implication appears to be that Kwikspell is a scam.

Ginny Weasley seemed very disturbed by Mrs Norris's fate. According to Ron, she was a great cat-lover. (111)

I'm going back and forth on how I feel about the handling of Ginny's character. We see very little of her, and are only told of her reactions. On the other hand, if she'd been more prominent, maybe the answer to the mystery would have seemed too obvious?

[Ron:] 'I only need another two inches, go on...' (112)

Out-of-context, ahoy!

[Binns:] '[The Founders] built this castle together, far from prying Muggle eyes, for it was an age when magic was feared by common people, and witches and wizards suffered much persecution.'
[...]
'[Slytherin] disliked taking students of Muggle parentage, believing them to be untrustworthy[...]' (114)

It's not an unreasonable idea, really. In the present day, magic is still feared by some, but merely doubted by most. A thousand years ago, the danger posed by Muggleborns may have been much greater -- we don't know how well the castle was hidden; a child's careless slip could have brought attack. Salazar may even have argued that it was for the children's benefit: even if the Muggles couldn't find the castle, they could still burn a suspected witch among them.

'If you're talking about Malfoy--'
'Of course I am!' said Ron. 'You heard him: "You'll be next, Mudbloods!" Come on, you've only got to look at his foul rat face to know it's him--'
'Malfoy, the heir of Slytherin?' said Hermione sceptically.
'Look at his family,' said Harry, closing his books, too. 'The whole lot of them have been in Slytherin, he's always boasting about it. They could easily be Slytherin's descendants. His father's definitely evil enough.' (120)

And once again the boys jump to conclusions based on outward appearances, just as they did in PS/SS. Not to say that Lucius isn't evil, but Harry doesn't have much solid evidence that he is. It's hard to tell whether Ron is saying Draco is ugly, or something more like "just look into his eyes and you'll see he's a bad sort". Either way, it's not very good evidence, though admittedly Draco did react suspiciously.


Past re-read posts are here.

Comments

[sideofzen.livejournal.com]

Well, there might be a fear that a Squib parent would increase the chance of more Squibs. Plus, just the sheer distain for someone who was born to a magic family, then doesn't come into any power.

Also, I think Filch is sensitive to the fact that he is a Squib being constantly surrounded by magic.

blah blah Up Slytherin

[caesia390.livejournal.com]

I doubt present-day Wizarding prejudice has much to do with the ideals of the Founders. I think if was nicolthewhore who suggested that the basilisk, the forest, the squid, the maze-like quality of the castle were all originally protections. And as we're talking (lord, when was Hogwarts founded? *consults HPL*) c. 1000 CE... Well, witch hunts were centuries away, Wizards freely intermingled with muggles, lived with them, married them, etc (meaning that you actually had far fewer pureblood families, the vast majority halfbloods) - the Norman Conquest might not have even happened yet - everyone and their brother was at war... Hogwarts was in all likelihood a fortress, and Slytherin might have feared enemy invasion not just in the form of Muggleborns but in the instance of anyone of dubious political affiliation.

*insert more poor paraphrasing from Red Hen*

bah. i am tired. everyone just read everything Red Hen has to say, then pretend i did a better job of copping some of their arguments, whatever's relevant to this discussion.

[scarah2.livejournal.com]

What's this about? I'm surprised Harry didn't immediately jump to suspecting Snape was somehow involved in the attack.

I thought it was because he's pleased Harry is implicated. This is related to the whole Duelling Club scene, where Snape whispers in Draco's ear right before he conjures the serpent and Harry is exposed as a Parselmouth in front of the whole school. I think Snape suspects some of what Dumbledore also suspects, but Dumbledore realizes Harry isn't behind the attacks for the whole story, whereas Snape doesn't.

I'm not clear on how Squibs get lumped in with Muggleborns; by the logic that Binns attributes to Salazar, they're not a threat. Unless there was some sense that intermarriage between Squibs and normal wizards would dilute the blood, so they should be ostracized?

I've always thought one concern with bringing Muggleborns to Hogwarts was the security risk of exposing things like Diagon Alley to their families. Possibly the same reasoning is at work, nonmagic people (even Squibs) have no place at Hogwarts or anywhere in the magical world, because their presence is a risk.

Out-of-context, ahoy!

*SNORT*

and w00t enigmatic ginny

[caesia390.livejournal.com]

...which really begs the question (to me) of why the hell hogwarts was founded in the first place. because, presumeably, at this point most wizards would have closer affiliation with their local communities, broomstick travel is slow and painful; apparation probably not as common or convenient... why the hell would people go all the way to scotland to study magic? adults or children??? unless someone had Foreseen the norman conquest, or else because of tensions with Christians (which were later irrelevant as most everybody became christian anyway). ...or maybe just because. ...i doubt the curriculum in any way resembled what it later became - probably more like a university, a meeting place for adults as well as a training ground for children...

and i reiterate that i really am much too tired to be thinking right now

Re: blah blah Up Slytherin

[biichan.livejournal.com]

The Norman conquest didn't happen yet, no. I believe that was 1012? Anyhow, they'd still need protection from Vikings, given that the bastards were looting all around at the time.

Re: and w00t enigmatic ginny

[sideofzen.livejournal.com]

why the hell hogwarts was founded in the first place

Well, assuming children learned magic from their parents before Hogwarts was founded, who knows what they were learning (Dark Arts) or not learning, even. I suppose The Founders felt there should be some regulation and structured education for all children.

JKR has said we'll learn more about the Founders in the next book, so I'll be interested to see if she develops a backstop. Though, I'm probably going to be disappointed. =P

Re: blah blah Up Slytherin

[caesia390.livejournal.com]

right, norman conguest definitely wasn't for another generation, if the 'thousand years ago' founding date is correct. so i guess my question is - why did wizards band together then?

you have a highly belligerent society, an island filled with kingdoms that are attacking, being attacked, thrones usurped, fending off invasions, employing invaders.... Wizards are fully integrated within this society, which i think we can assume, given the fact that the official separation wasn't for a further 700 years. wizards are governed by the Warlocks Council, which is probably a very loose assembly of elders. The question in my mind is how openly they practiced magic. Probably, secrecy has always been a factor, given that magic (seems to be) a have or have-not sort of situation; wizards assume a certain power of Mystery over the muggle warlords who doubtlessly seek to use them at every opportunity. (I'm reminded of Merlin and Vortigern here).

You have goblins and elves and giants kicking up fusses.

I guess what I'm seeing is a sort of training ground. Suddenly it's not enough to have one local witch or warlock with apprentices. I'm visualizing a combination of resistance against the property-of-warlord system, a desire to share and consolidate knowledge, a desire to be more skilled in general, and perhaps the creation of a Wizarding identity itself... And who knows? Hogwarts probably had its basis in other schools - but these centred around a single respected teacher rather than an established, fortified location.

Re: blah blah Up Slytherin

[pauraque]

(Far be it from me to stifle discussion, but I must butt in here and insist that Caesia go to bed. *kiss* )

Re: and w00t enigmatic ginny

[caesia390.livejournal.com]

I guess I'm mainly having problems trainslating modern or even middle ages education concerns into this early time period. Britain was utterly unstable then. What the Children are Learning seems less important than wartime allegeances and the use of magic in general. The emphasis on Children seems peculiar to me, since it doesn't seem like there could have been much of any sort of Wizarding Community beyond a few Elder-supported guidelines that were probably unenforceable anyway.

I think what I'm really leaning toward is that Hogwarts was originally not just a school, but also a permanent, fortified meeting place for all the wizards in Britain. With Hogsmeade established as a residence for those who prefer to live completely secluded from muggles, or perhaps (additionally or originally) as a farming village and market providing for the inhabitants of Hogwarts, which only happened to be predominantly wizardkind because Hogwarts itself exclusively housed wizards.

And Eo, I must apologize for going off on this tangent all over your CoS discussion.

Re: blah blah Up Slytherin

[caesia390.livejournal.com]

eek! second wind happened, and now i Must Must go to bed, or else i won't get any sleep at all!!!!

goodnight. :}

[threeoranges.livejournal.com]

Snape loomed behind them [as Dumbledore examined Mrs Norris], half in shadow, wearing a most peculiar expression: it was as though he was trying hard not to smile.

Could you have just discovered the fandom's next "triumphant gleam"? The "proof" that Snape really is working for Voldemort? I'm only being half-facetious here. The average 'good' wizard would be pretty disturbed about the evidence of Petrification and an ominous prophecy written in blood, but Snape - Snape's trying hard not to smile. (And we all know that look of trying-not-to-smile, it's quite unmistakable. The only thing it could be confused with is outright malice.)

Basically, I can think of only two reasons to explain his trying-not-to-smile:

1) He's pleased at the thought of the Heir of Slytherin returning
2) He's such a spiteful child that the blood, ominous prophecy and Petrified cat don't actually register on his consciousness at all: his sole reaction is pleasure at the thought of Harry Potter and friends in trouble

Furthermore, since Snape can read minds, he has either done so and found they weren't guilty, or chosen not to do so (and thus unconsciously admitted that it's more pleasant to pretend they are responsible than to discover the truth). I really can't see an interpretation where Snape comes out well.

Also, I agree about that too-pat explanation for Ginny's distress. Cat-lover? The Weasleys don't have a cat, do they? Why should Ron be so eager to provide a motive for Ginny's distress beyond the easily-accepted "it's a ghastly, horrific and evil scene that would naturally distress some people"? If we'd found out later that Ron had suspected Ginny and had supplied the "cat-lover" explanation just to throw Harry off the trail, that would have been good mystery-writing - but, as it stands, Ron's explanation makes him appear a bit dense, like a woman married to a serial-killer who dismisses all the suspicious evidence rather too easily. ("Oh, Crippen my love? There's blood all over the kitchen floor. Did you defrost the Christmas turkey early this year?")

If Rowling does rewrite the books later on she could easily take out the "cat-lover" bit, it really isn't necessary.

[vvvexation.livejournal.com]

First of all, Ron always has been a bit dense; second and more importantly, some explanation of Ginny's distress is necessary so it won't seem odd that it was mentioned at all (that is, that her being upset was mentioned when presumably everyone else was also upset). There's more reason for it literarily than there is within the story.

And one certainly doesn't need to own a cat to be mad about them.

[threeoranges.livejournal.com]

But why couldn't Ginny just be upset at the scene without the specific "cat-lover" excuse from Ron? Rowling's fond of having Harry assume things, such as when he overhears Quirrell in the classroom in PS/SS and bets himself that the other person threatening him had to have been Snape. It would have been fairer for Harry to have witnessed her distress and assumed that Ginny must have been a great cat-lover to have been so upset.

[vvvexation.livejournal.com]

Snape is a bit Quidditch-mad, isn't he? But maybe not so much an enthusiasm for sport as an enthusiasm to see his House win at something -- and Harry lose.

Well, McGonagall did say in SS/PS that she couldn't look him in the face for weeks after Gryffindor's last loss to Slytherin--but that might say more about her Quidditch-madness than his.

[vvvexation.livejournal.com]

Well, there's a whole paragraph of dialogue there, not just that one comment, and I think that taken as a whole it's much more effective than just the offhand thought from Harry would've been, and seems less forced too.

[threeoranges.livejournal.com]

*flips back to the page* I see what you mean, the dialogue works. But the "According to Ron" still sticks out as a definite assertion of fact, whereas it would have been more sporting to the reader to have had a description of Ginny looking upset and asking questions about how Mrs Norris was recovering, followed by Ron saying "Look, Ginny, I know you're an animal-lover, but Mrs Norris really was a nasty bit of work and we're honestly better off without her." That way we'd have Ginny's exact questions, followed by Ron's assumed interpretation of the motivations behind them.

Would we readers have guessed right off that Ginny was responsible, given that extra expansion of the text? I doubt it: we'd have been on the lookout for a consciously evil perpetrator, not for an innocent little girl controlled to do these things against her will. Rowling could have afforded to give a direct clue here, imho.

[couchemal.livejournal.com]

Everyone else has something really intelligent to say. Not me. I'm just going to snicker at the out of context line.

*snicker*

OK, done.

[elinevere.livejournal.com]

I personally think it's part of a sparring match that has been going on between Snape and Mcgonagall. He tries to vex her by suggesting she does something that she might've done (as in giving a punishment, probably deducting a few house points) when she had found Harry and the others on the scene of the crime and she had been suspicious about them telling the whole truth.

McGonagall is a no-nonsense person, so she would have been a bit harsh on them, I think. Snape of course- he's bloody clever sometimes- has realized what her way of dealing with the problem had been in that situation, and twists it into something that would be convenient for him. McGonagall isn't so foolish that she doens't get the hint... All very smart and subtle, moreso than it seems at first glance. The end result is that the score Snape versus McGonagall is 1-0. Go Snape! She's such an easy prey; she's strict and because of that predictable.

So it's not just about Quidditch here, although I think McGonagall likes it a bit more than she ought to as a professor and Deputy Headmistress that should remain neutral, but it is about the motives behind the matches.

When you think of house rivalry, don't just expect to find it between students and on a very crude and open manner, but also try to look for subtleties in the staff. Very satisfactory, I assure you.

[neotoma.livejournal.com]

I'm not clear on how Squibs get lumped in with Muggleborns

Perhaps because most Squibs move into the Muggle world and risk alerting the population to the existence of Wizards?

Snape is a bit Quidditch-mad, isn't he? But maybe not so much an enthusiasm for sport as an enthusiasm to see his House win at something -- and Harry lose.


The Slytherins used to win all the time, so maybe Snape really does like the sport. Or maybe it's just his competitive streak...

'Well -- it's not funny really -- but as it's Filch...' he said

It's also another instance of Ron's Pureblood prejudices coming through. His gut reaction to Squibs, werewolves, Giants and all are very telling about what the average wizard or witch thinks about anyone different.

A thousand years ago, the danger posed by Muggleborns may have been much greater

A thousand year ago, as of 1992, is 1092, less than 30 years after the Norman Conquest. Things were quite unsettled, but the witch hunts are still centuries off. There would have been occasional attacks on witches by Muggles who thought they were being bewitched, but organized burnings didn't happen -- and in England they would have been hanged, not burned.

My own theory is that Salazar saw Muggleborns as of uncertain loyalty in that they could very well chose their Muggle relatives over their Magical compatriots, and that he didn't want to draw the attention of Muggle rulers, who would probably have liked to use Wizards as tools.

And once again the boys jump to conclusions based on outward appearances

Harry and Ron are very lazy intellectually. They don't think because they don't *have* to with Hermione around, and because they've never been taught *how* to. Frankly, the Hogwarts education isn't helping them there.

[serriadh.livejournal.com]

Sorry to jump all over you, but 1992 - 1000 years will make the Founding 992, not 1092. :)

Ron is indeed very prejudiced and doesn't really think. He bases all his opinions on people he knows and doesn't question much else. For instance, all werewolves are bad, and I think even after PoA Ron would still - on an instinctual level at least - believe that. Lupin is exception because Ron knows him.

[neotoma.livejournal.com]

Fudge, you're right. Brain is apparently playing silly buggers with math
today.

Exactly, Ron will make exceptions for people he knows, but lump every other werewolf/Giant/Squib/Muggle into whatever box his rearing has lead him to imagine. It makes me wonder what the Weasleys were like in the First War (they weren't Order members, right?) and how much they've changed. I will say that I think it's more Molly's influence than Arthur's, but that's because Arthur is such an airhead that I don't think his children take him seriously as a role-model.

Re: and w00t enigmatic ginny

[cschick.livejournal.com]

Your thoughts lead me to this: maybe Hogwarts was founded as a type of unification. If wizards mingled more freely in their local communities at that time, they would generally take on the allegiances of that community. That would create wizard-to-wizard tensions as well (and might even promote the development of the dark arts, if community-to-community tensions lead to hostilities). Taking the children out of the community to educate them would weaken their links to those communities and strengthen their links to the wizarding community as a whole.

[cschick.livejournal.com]

What's this about? I'm surprised Harry didn't immediately jump to suspecting Snape was somehow involved in the attack.

I'm not really a major HP fan (I've read all the books at this point, but I'm not really into the whole deal) but when I read that, I thought that Snape was simply amused that Mrs. Norris had been attacked. There's some ongoing conflict between Snape and Filch, isn't there?

[cs-luis.livejournal.com]

I've always read it that Snape was just mildly amused in his morbid-sense-of-humor-way by the attack (and everyone's panicked reaction to it), especially if he knew Mrs. Norris hadn't been killed. And, I mean, it's easy to start laughing during really inappropriate moments. Especially if you have the propensity to snicker at others' distress, like Filch's hysterics. Snape makes me laugh.

I really think that line is in there, though, just to kind of throw us off. ("Psst! Don't forget! Snape is shady!")

There's not a conflict between Snape and Filch, I don't think - they seem to get along well enough, though Snape seems to like to boss him around, which is funny.

[cschick.livejournal.com]

I guess that I've always read aggression or dislike into that bossiness, then. Thanks :)