CoS 11

[pauraque_bk]

Not from this chapter, but seviet has posted a lovely CoS illustration: Harry and Ron in the staff room (G).

*

In Chapter 10, we learned that grapes are a traditional gift for ill people in Britain. hermione_like had some cool thoughts on the Harry-as-werewolf symbolism. Also, good discussion about Harry's concepts of danger and fear.


CoS 11: The Duelling Club

[Percy:] 'Excellent flying yesterday, really excellent. Gryffindor have just taken the lead for the House Cup -- you earned fifty points!' (137)

How does that work? I thought the Quidditch Cup and the House Cup were two separate things.

'If I ever find out who threw this,' Snape whispered, 'I shall make sure that person is expelled.' (141)

This isn't really an unfair response. Potions are dangerous ('Malfoy got a faceful and his nose began to swell like a balloon; Goyle blundered about, his hands over his eyes, which had expanded to the size of dinner plates' (140) ); Harry is lucky no one was caused any permanent damage. I'm reminded of McGonagall's statement in PS/SS, along the lines of "anyone who messes about in my class will be asked not to return".

Also, does Snape ever find out why Harry did this? Because if not (and if he does know it was Harry, as Harry thinks), add that to the list of legitimate reasons Snape has to dislike him.

'Let me introduce my assistant Professor Snape,' said Lockhart, flashing a wide smile. 'He tells me he knows a tiny little bit about duelling himself and has sportingly agreed to help me with a short demonstration before we begin[...]' (142)

Any thoughts on what really happened here? Did Lockhart ask, and if so, why? And why did Snape agree? Or was it really Snape's idea? Did he want to show Lockhart up? I can see Dumbledore suggesting he participate in order to prevent the situation from degenerating into chaos... in his way of asking Snape do to things Snape doesn't want to do, yet that indicate respect that Dumbledore would ask. (That sentence is ridiculously malformed, but I hope you all know what I meant, because I can't get the words straight.)

Harry hung back, with a vague feeling it would be unsporting to bewitch Malfoy while he was on the floor, but this was a mistake. Gasping for breath, Malfoy pointed his wand at Harry's knees, choked, 'Tarantallegra!'[...] (144)

Despite the fact that Draco first hits Harry with a painful curse (before they're actually supposed to start), Harry retaliates with nothing more than a Tickling Charm, and is apparently too much of a gentleman to do anything to Draco while he's down. But does Harry actually *know* any harmful spells at this point?

[Lockhart:] 'Whoops -- my wand is a little over-excited.' (145)

No comment.

Snape moved closer to Malfoy, bent down and whispered something in his ear. Malfoy smirked, too. (145)

Snape, too, was looking at Harry in an unexpected way: it was a shrewd and calculating look, and Harry didn't like it. (146)

It seems likely that Snape told Draco to set a snake on Harry, to test if he was a Parselmouth. But where would he get the idea Harry was?

Harry wasn't sure what made him do it. He wasn't even aware of deciding to do it. All he knew was that his legs were carrying him forward as though he was on castors and that he had shouted stupidly at the snake, 'Leave him!' (145)

'But I'm in Gryffindor,' Harry thought. 'The Sorting Hat wouldn't have put me here if I had Slytherin blood...'
'Ah,' said a nasty little voice in his brain, 'But the Sorting Hat wanted to put you in Slytherin, don't you remember?' (147)

I'm not fond of the theory that when Harry hears "nasty voices" in his head, they're really remnants of Voldemort. But I have to admit I see where it comes from, here... These just don't sound like Harry, though of course the sentiment behind "Leave him" is what Harry wants, not what Voldemort would want.

'So?' said Harry. 'I bet loads of people here can do it.'
'Oh no they can't,' said Ron. 'It's not a very common gift. Harry, this is bad.' (146)

Another thing I keep thinking I'm going to point out, and then not. It isn't some sort of fandom myth that Hermione gets all of Ron's useful lines in the movie: it's true. Ron isn't as ignorant as the films make him appear. He's reasonably knowledgable about the wizarding world, and gets a lot of expository lines.

'And in case you're getting ideas,' [Ernie] added hastily, 'I might tell you that you can trace my family back through nine generations of witches and warlocks and my blood's as pure as anyone's, so--' (150)

There's that word again, 'warlock'. With a high-class implication this time.

[Harry:] 'Why would I want to attack Muggle-borns?'
'I've heard you hate those Muggles you live with,' said Ernie swiftly.
'It's not possible to live with the Dursleys and not hate them,' said Harry. 'I'd like to see you try it.' (150)

We get what Harry is saying here -- that he doesn't hate them because they're Muggles -- but the Hufflepuffs don't necessarily.


Past re-read posts are here.

Comments

[sideofzen.livejournal.com]

Did Lockhart ask, and if so, why? And why did Snape agree? Or was it really Snape's idea?

I think I remember reading somewhere that Snape asked to join him. Don't ask me where, but it sticks in my mind. Of course, I could be completely making it up...

[tekalynn.livejournal.com]

'If I ever find out who threw this,' Snape whispered, 'I shall make sure that person is expelled.' (141)
This isn't really an unfair response.

Damn right. If I were teaching a class with potentially dangerous ingredients and some twit threw a firecracker into a beaker or what have you, I would be seriously upset. Anyone with half a brain would be. I'd expell the little creep myself. And it sure looks like Snape knows, or at least suspects, who's the culprit.

'Let me introduce my assistant Professor Snape,' said Lockhart, flashing a wide smile. 'He tells me he knows a tiny little bit about duelling himself and has sportingly agreed to help me with a short demonstration before we begin[...]' (142)
Any thoughts on what really happened here?

Great questions! One of the Hogwarts Letters I'm overdue on is Snape's response to Lockhart's flirtatious invitation to the duel. I can't imagine how Lockhart managed to talk Snape into it; I'd be inclined to think that Snape would be slicing up filet de Gilderoy that evening in his dungeon for even daring to suggest such a thing.

[exbentley]

How does that work?

I thought the point difference between the two teams would be addded to that house's total, and also the the cup (i.e. Gryffindor plays Ravenclaw, beats them by 100 points. The 100 points may be negated by misbehaviour in class or Ravenclaw catching up academically in the House Cup, but it scores as a 'win' for them in terms of the Quidditch cup.

[melpemone.livejournal.com]

It seems likely that Snape told Draco to set a snake on Harry, to test if he was a Parselmouth. But where would he get the idea Harry was?

I actually had the opposite idea, here - I'd thought that by showing Draco a bit of more advanced magic, he'd simply be showing up Harry - and in a particularly Slytherin way (Harry Potter felled by a snake - it's a metaphor, innit? ;)). As I recall, Snape doesn't leave much time between the snake being conjured and his insistence on getting rid of it - before Lockhart intervenes and pisses the snake off further, of course. So Harry doesn't have much time to reveal he's a Parselmouth before the professors step in.

I'd always taken the 'shrewd and calculating look' to mean Snape was considering what Harry being a Parselmouth could mean in the greater scheme of things - what other skills could Harry have got from Voldemort? And how does that affect Snape's position?

Just my 2 cents, anyway. :-)

[eponis.livejournal.com]

It seems likely that Snape told Draco to set a snake on Harry, to test if he was a Parselmouth.

I never really saw it that way. A snake would be a particularly difficult spell to face, precisely because it's not a spell; typical HP spells can be either dodged or repelled, but for a snake, Harry would have to react to it with a spell that would specifically disable another, non-human, living creature. So it's testing Harry's ability to genuinely attack another being, not just dodge and hurl hexes.

Incidentally, I wonder whether - rather than coaching him with special knowledge - Snape was simply suggesting a spell that was already a Slytherin trademark. It seems like very complex magic (I don't recall Harry ever learning a "create something ex nihilo" spell, although we do see others using them), so it might be a House secret that all Slytherins learn.

[scarah2.livejournal.com]

Any thoughts on what really happened here? Did Lockhart ask, and if so, why? And why did Snape agree? Or was it really Snape's idea? Did he want to show Lockhart up? I can see Dumbledore suggesting he participate in order to prevent the situation from degenerating into chaos... in his way of asking Snape do to things Snape doesn't want to do, yet that indicate respect that Dumbledore would ask.

I agree that Snape suspected Harry of being a Parselmouth, and saw this as the perfect opportunity to test him while possibly exposing him before the student body as the likely perpetrator of the crimes.

But where would he get the idea Harry was?

Either from Dumbledore, or through somehow knowing some of what Dumbledore knows through another channel.

It isn't some sort of fandom myth that Hermione gets all of Ron's useful lines in the movie: it's true.

Word. The complaints echoing loudest in my head are of course from the most recent PoA, but, I think it happened much more often in CoS. I lost count at about 5 or 6 instances, on my last reread.

We get what Harry is saying here -- that he doesn't hate them because they're Muggles -- but the Hufflepuffs don't necessarily.

Agreed again! I was like, Harry, why did you phrase it that way?

[mctabby.livejournal.com]

Many hugs and sparkly things to you, pauraque, for doing these chapter re-reads. I've been lurking and loving it. :D

B-52s - yaaaayyy!

[vvvexation.livejournal.com]

How does that work? I thought the Quidditch Cup and the House Cup were two separate things.

I guess Harry also was awarded house points for winning the game.

I'm reminded of McGonagall's statement in PS/SS, along the lines of "anyone who messes about in my class will be asked not to return".

Which, in her case, is apparently an exaggeration, as she doesn't seem to mind all that much when Harry and Ron duel with fake wands in her class in GoF....

[seventines.livejournal.com]

It seems likely that Snape told Draco to set a snake on Harry, to test if he was a Parselmouth. But where would he get the idea Harry was?

I don't think Snape knew - his response to it is a change in expression - where before he was enjoying setting Harry up to be frightened by a snake, now he responds as if he hadn't expected what happened and he is working out the implications:

Snape, too, was looking at Harry in an unexpected way: it was a shrewd and calculating look..

I suppose this could also be read as Snape having found out what he expected, but the shrewd and calculating look comes after he tells Malfoy to cast the snake spell.

Part 1: Cups and Potions

[arclevel.livejournal.com]

you earned fifty points! ... I thought the Quidditch Cup and the House Cup were two separate things.

I think they're primarily separate, but doing well at Quidditch helps you overall. This may be partly why Slytherin has been winning both competitions for years before Harry shows up. Fifty points for winning a game seems like an awful lot to me, but then, it's not the first time I've been concerned by the apparent emphasis on sports in a school where, at most, 10% of the students get the chance to play a sport.

'If I ever find out who threw this,' Snape whispered, 'I shall make sure that person is expelled.' (141)

This isn't really an unfair response ... Also, does Snape ever find out why Harry did this? Because if not, add that to the list of legitimate reasons Snape has to dislike him.

I agree, except that I think you've understated my feelings on it. Throwing a firecracker into a cauldron full of a potion that hurts every student it splashes is a rather astonishing and dangerous piece of misbehavior. Did Harry *know* Snape had Deflating Draught? Did he *care*? IIRC, we only hear that any Slytherins were swollen -- might he have actually thought twice if there were Gryffindors sitting by Goyle?

It brings up a few other random points. For instance, Goyle made the potion correctly; perhaps he's less incompetent then we're led to believe. Or he's just having a really good day, at least until some jerk through a firecracker into his cauldron. (I like Harry, really I do.) On another note, Ron and Harry both display an astonishing level of disrespect for Snape as a *teacher* throughout the books. They go on about how unfair he is, but by their own admissions, they don't pay attention in class, they misbehave, at one point in GoF they yell obscenities at him. I can't see Harry and Ron behaving like that to any other teacher, and I can't see many other students behaving like that in Snape's class (or McGonagall's, for instance). Next, they immediately assumed that, since the ingredients weren't in the cupboard, they needed to steal them from Snape. Did *any* of them consider another method? Mail order, for example? Asking an older student to pick them up from Hogsmeade? It's possible these ingredients are restricted, so they couldn't buy them, but that gives an even stronger reason to think twice about their whole plot.

Finally, you say that this contributes to Snape's legitimate dislike of Harry *if* he doesn't know why he did it. I say that it's an even more legitimate dislike if he *does* know, which I suspect he does. As a reader, I really like the Polyjuice scene, but it's one of those things that I think they Should Not Have Done as characters -- much like Harry crawling into Snape's pensieve. I don't see any decent reason that justifies the whole Polyjuice plot, even taking out the excess crimes with it, like throwing firecrackers and knocking out Crabbe and Goyle. Their entire suspicion of Draco boils down to, "He's a jerk, and he once mentioned that his parents were in Slytherin." Snape's hardly going to be more forgiving if he knows about it.

Part 2: Duels and Ancestry

[arclevel.livejournal.com]

Dumbledore could have talked Snape into assisting, yes. OTOH, I think Lockhart may have approached Snape, figuring that the *Potions* teacher wouldn't be any good, and he could whomp him. Snape, in turn, looked forward to the chance to "legally" hex Lockhart, and in front of all the students too. He gets to show off, *and* expose Lockhart's incompetence. Where's the downside? ;-)

I'd sort of gotten the impression that Draco had started with the Disarming Charm, it just hadn't worked all that well, and that Harry had been the first to use something else. I agree that Harry's got a strong sense of fair play here (Gryffindor foolishness ;-) but neither of Draco's spells seems terribly harmful, either.

Can I also take a moment to cheer for Millicent Bulstrode? Paired with Hermione, she probably knew that she didn't know *near* as many spells as Hermione did. Having little chance to win a magical duel, she chucked that plan and moved the fight into an area she could win -- the physical. Smart move, girl. :-)

Casting my vote on the side that Snape suggested the spell to freak Harry out, and had no idea he was a Parselmouth. I think there may have been a Slytherin pride element to it. Also, Snape had to know that Draco already knew that spell, or he wouldn't have suggested it. Snape hates people showing off in class, but he understands his students' ambition -- he may have figured that this was the *right* venue for showing off, so suggested a spell to Draco that would let him do that. Except that dratted Potter had to go and show him up by speaking Parseltongue.

You don't have conversations with yourself where one side tells you all the things you know, but don't want to acknowledge? Lucky. That's what the "nasty voice" sounds like to me.

Yep, in the books, Hermione gives all the random historical/technical exposition, and Ron gives all the information about the Wizarding World exposition. (Rather makes poor Harry look pathetically uninformed, doesn't it?) In the movies, especially CoS, Hermione does all the exposition, including some of Dumbledore's.

Does Ernie mean nine generations in every direction? That is, he knows and can trace his ancestry through all 512 great⁷-grandparents? I'd love to see that family tree. (I'd love to have my own, really.) I get the impression most of the ancestry-tracing, such as the Black tapestry, goes primarily through one paternal line with a few extensions for sisters, mothers, and daughters, but doesn't cover female ancestors beyond a generation or two. That, of course, is much easier to trace, but with the wizarding world's small population and emphasis on ancestry, they may have the resources to make it easy.

Harry's "defense" about hating Dursleys vs Muggles could be particularly interesting in light of the fact that Riddle only hated one Muggle -- his father -- for doing something horrible in abandoning them, and then transferred that to Muggles as a whole. Of course, Ernie and the other students couldn't know that, and Dumbledore knows Harry to well to consider that. However, it might lead Voldemort to think Harry might be able to turn on Muggles. (With the prophecy, though, it seems unlikely he'd try to recruit Harry, which I could easily see otherwise.)

[neotoma.livejournal.com]

This isn't really an unfair response. Potions are dangerous

It's also interesting to see that Snape has the antidote at hand. He anticipates that things will go wrong and is ready to deal with it. A firecracker in class *is* a bit much, though. Harry should have gotten into a lot of trouble for that.

Also, does Snape ever find out why Harry did this? Because if not (and if he does know it was Harry, as Harry thinks), add that to the list of legitimate reasons Snape has to dislike him.

I suspect he figures it out when 1) he figures out the Boomslang skin is missing and 2) gets called to make any Potions of Cat!Hermione.

Any thoughts on what really happened here? Did Lockhart ask, and if so, why? And why did Snape agree?

Snape had an overwhelming urge to smack Lockhart down hard? I rather think Snape was doing it under duress, because Harry notes that he looks at Lockhart quite nastily even before they get down to duelling.

Just to note, Harry's Tickling Charm looks harmless, but it's another apparently weak hex that can have horrible consequences. Tickling can cause the ticklee to faint from oxygen deprivation if it goes on too long.

'And in case you're getting ideas,' [Ernie] added hastily, 'I might tell you that you can trace my family back through nine generations of witches and warlocks and my blood's as pure as anyone's, so--' (150)

I note that at 12-years old, Ernie can trace his family back nine generation. Yes, he probably can't do it from memory, but the fact that he can indicates that it's not only Slytherins who care about purebloodedness.

[playscape.livejournal.com]

While I'm not sure how Snape came to be involved in the Dueling Club in CoS, I'd like to take his assisting to lead the Dueling Club as a foreshadowing of his eventual post as DADA teacher. The Dueling Club is, essentially, Defense Against the Dark Arts, afterall.

And it does irk me that Hermione gets lots of Ron's exposition in the films. Of course Ron would know that hearing voices, even in the wizarding world, is a bad thing. Of course Ron would know what a mudblood is. *shakes head* Why give the lines to Hermione, a 12-year-old muggleborn? I find myself asking, "Hermione, how do you know that? And why does it affect you as if you've grown up with it all along" practically every time she offers her wizarding world "wisdom" in the films.

[lycoris.livejournal.com]

Snape's repsonse to the firework wasn't unfair but the way he instantly goes to Harry is. Snape has no proof that it was Harry who threw it. The fact that Harry did it is immatieral - Snape has no reason to assume Harry did except that he doesn't like him.

Snape also never found out that Harry did it (unless it was in Harry's memories) or why - the Polyjuice Potion was between Harry, Ron and Hermione. None of the teachers ever found out about it.

My guess is that Snape volenteered. He does know a lot about duelling. Lockhart probably also voleenteered and then took over in his usual manner.

I think that saying Snape was trying to test Harry for Parseltongue is giving Snape too much credit. I think he was bitter about the firework and wanted to get Harry in some way. The snake would be alarming for everyone and also would leave Harry somewhat in Snape's debt (in Snape's eyes anyway) if Snape had to get rid of it. He also wanted Malfoy to win and he knew there was almost certainly nothing Harry could do against the snake. The fact that it then revealed Harry was a Parselmouth was an added bonus.