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pauraque_bkChapter 8: Best chapter discussion yet! We got on James=Harry, and somehow it became all about Sirius and manipulation and emotional maturity and whee! Go look. It's great stuff.
PS 9: The Midnight Duel
And ah, how do I love Pansy? She's such a pitch-perfect Mean Girl (at least the way I remember them).
On the other hand, I wonder if she realizes how it's going to burn him up to see James's son getting special treatment because he's ever-so-good at sport. :P
Past re-read posts are riight thurrrr.
PS 9: The Midnight Duel
Harry had never believed he would meet a boy he hated more than Dudley, but that was before he met Draco Malfoy. [...] Flying lessons would be starting on Thursday -- and Gryffindor and Slytherin would be learning together.Damn, Harry. Shall we just call you Eeyore? As explained, this is only the second class Harry has with Draco -- how is it "typical"? Methinks Harry has a persecution complex.
'Typical,' said Harry darkly. 'Just what I always wanted. To make a fool of myself on a broomstick in front of Malfoy.' (107)
At breakfast on Thursday [Hermione] bored them all stupid with flying tips she'd got out of a library book[...] Neville was hanging on to her every word, desperate for anything that might help him hang on to his broomstick later. (108)It doesn't occur to Harry that Neville might be interested in what Hermione is saying, or that he might simply like her.
They were half hoping for a reason to fight Malfoy, but Professor McGonagall, who could spot trouble quicker than any teacher in the school, was there in a flash. (108)All that's happened at this point is that Draco snatched Neville's Remembrall away; she breaks them up, and Draco leaves. It's hard not to wonder where this eagle eye was in the days when MWPP were going after Snape... or maybe that's _why_ she's particularly sensitive to bullying now.
[Draco:] 'Did you see his face, the great lump?'I believe this is the first thing we see Parvati do (besides being Sorted). She also sticks up for Harry later on, telling McGonagall that Draco started it.
The other Slytherins joined in [laughing].
'Shut up, Malfoy,' snapped Parvati Patil.
'Ooh, sticking up for Longbottom?' said Pansy Parkinson, a hard-faced Slytherin girl. 'Never thought you'd like fat little cry babies, Parvati.' (110)
And ah, how do I love Pansy? She's such a pitch-perfect Mean Girl (at least the way I remember them).
He thought of Hagrid, expelled but allowed to stay on as gamekeeper. Perhaps he could be Hagrid's assistant. His stomach twisted as he imagined it, watching Ron and the others becoming wizards while he stumped around the grounds, carrying Hagrid's bag. (112)This hurts every time I read it.
'Excuse me, Professor Flitwick, could I borrow Wood for a moment?'HA! Only in fic, Harry...
Wood? thought Harry, bewildered; was Wood a cane she was going to use on him? (112)
'I shall speak to Professor Dumbledore and see if we can't bend the first-year rule. Heave knows, we need a better team than last year. Flattened in that last match by Slytherin, I couldn't look Severus Snape in the face for weeks...' (113)I like the rivalry between McGonagall and Snape. It shows that she respects him as an equal, despite the fact that he's much younger than her, and she was once his teacher. I think this is why he-- well, I won't say he likes her, but at least doesn't dislike her, which is about as far as he ever goes.
On the other hand, I wonder if she realizes how it's going to burn him up to see James's son getting special treatment because he's ever-so-good at sport. :P
'Anyway, we've got to go, Lee Jordan reckons he's found a new secret passageway out of the school.'With a little help from MWPP, I daresay! They got the map their first year. It's not like they found everything on their own.
'Bet it's that one behind the statue of Gregory the Smarmy that we found in our first week. See you.' (114)
'I'm his second, who's yours?'Alas, Goyle gets no love. The movie has confused this point, but in canon, Crabbe is the tall one.
Malfoy looked at Crabbe and Goyle, sizing them up.
'Crabbe,' he said. (114)
'Don't leave me!' said Neville, scrambling to his feet. 'I don't want to stay here alone, the Bloody Baron's been past twice already.' (116)Neville doesn't come with them in the movie, and indeed, I can't think of a narrative reason that he does in the book. As he says, Madam Pomfrey mended him in an instant, so JKR's not stuck with him being there, she chose it. Why?
'Malfoy tricked you,' Hermione said to Harry. 'You realise that, don't you? He was never going to meet you -- Filch knew someone was going to be in the trophy room, Malfoy must have tipped him off.' (118)I love that Draco does this. It never occurs to Harry and Ron that Draco would use his House traits and defeat them with cunning instead of brute force.
'What do you think they're doing, keeping a thing like that locked up in a school?' said Ron finally. 'If any dog needs exercise, that one does.' (120)What an odd reaction! Sounds more like something Hagrid would say.
Past re-read posts are riight thurrrr.
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no subject
Date: 2005-01-25 06:11 am (UTC)To give Neville more motivation and background when he's standing up to the Trio at the end, I guess.
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Date: 2005-01-25 06:39 am (UTC)I always thought of this as Harry saying, "This is typical of the way my life has been," not necessarily that it was typical that he would get stuck with Draco. And really, it is typical of the way his life has been, in that Dudley was always around to make sure Harry's life was as miserable as possible.
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Date: 2005-01-25 07:24 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-01-25 07:16 am (UTC)like your icon...Aww...baby's first persecution complex!
'Never thought you'd like fat little cry babies, Parvati.' (110)
I wonder how Parvati and Pansy know each other? It seems that they wouldn't have met outside school...but maybe she's just basing it on how Parvati looks. Is Parvati pureblood? I can't remember.
'Excuse me, Professor Flitwick, could I borrow Wood for a moment?'
In the film, isn't he in Quirrel's class? I wonder why they changed it, seems insignificant...
I love that Draco does this.
Draco rocks. He needs to do more things like that. It's something I can really giggle at. I like that Draco makes fun of Harry and teases everyone, but sometimes I wish he were a bit more clever about it. Like, dude, seriously, you pretending to drop the Quaffle for the hundreth time isn't funny. Get some new material and I will gladly laugh along with you :)
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Date: 2005-01-25 07:28 am (UTC)Perhaps just to give the movie audience another look at p-poor P-Professor Quirrel stuttering and being all helpless and...blah.
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Date: 2005-01-25 07:26 am (UTC)He's done a pretty good impression of being persecuted all his life, I'd say.
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Date: 2005-01-25 07:32 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-01-25 07:50 am (UTC)Never have liked that snotty little shit of a character.
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Date: 2005-01-25 08:03 am (UTC)However you feel about a character, I don't think there's any call to get nasty about it.
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Date: 2005-01-25 08:37 am (UTC)Um, I guess I don't know how to respond to that. Am I hurting Draco's feelings?
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Date: 2005-01-25 06:44 pm (UTC)You may disagree. However, this is my journal.
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Date: 2005-01-25 09:31 am (UTC)What I think happens in this chapter is that Harry finally escapes the pattern of repetition that so typically haunts psychologically unhappy people. You know what they say about character being fate -- you take yourself off to a new environment, try to get a fresh start, and find you've brought all your old issues with you. I think this is the anxiety that looms over the whole second quarter of the book, from Harry's first meeting with Draco to the moment when McGonagall hustles him away from the flying lesson.
And it's worth taking a moment to admire what JKR has done here. She's set up this tremendous pressure of expectation with the fairy-tale shape of the first quarter of the book, with Harry and the Dursleys and the rescue by Hagrid and the discovery of the WW. And then you expect her to relieve all that pressure by making the wizarding world the simple fulfillment of Harry's wishes -- and instead, she cranks the rack tighter by making Harry's first experiences ambiguous and bittersweet -- there's wonderful stuff in the WW, but there's also snobbery, status anxiety, academic anxiety, and maybe Harry's membership is only conditional. The effect on Harry is interesting: He's curiously passive during the second quarter of the book; things happen to him and he mostly just soaks them up, at most making quick, instinctive gestures like refusing Draco's hand. His feelings seem to reflect his dread that maybe he hasn't really escaped anything, after all. I think this is the significance of his use of the word "typical" in your example above, as well as his sad fantasy of becoming Hagrid's assistant. Being a wizard means breaking out of the cycle of despair and petty self-assertion, and he can't quite believe that fate is going to let that happen to him.
Then, in the current chapter, he finally breaks through. The obvious part of the breakthrough is his triumph during the flying lesson. Here's something totally new for him: not just overcoming Draco's bullying, but earning himself a decisive change in status by becoming the youngest Seeker in a century. But in the second half of the chapter, he triumphs in a more "meta" way: he runs away from Filch after being tricked by Draco, and stumbles into the beginning of his great adventure with the Stone. He literally changes the story on the fly, and an incident that began as yet another item in the long list of his encounters with bullies transforms into something absolutely new, a detective/adventure story where he finds himself as a hero. I think the way JKR has linked the Filch and Fluffy adventures together is deliberate, and that this subtler opening-up of Harry's character is intended to mirror the more obvious opening-up of the Seeker incident.
The theory that this is a pivotal moment is reinforced by contrasting Harry's behavior before and after, in the second and third quarters of the book. Where he was passive before, we now begin to see him going from strength to strength, overcoming specific psychological patterns that he inherited from the Dursleys. He overcomes concern with the social pecking order when he becomes friends with Hermione over the troll incident -- previously, he needed to look down on her to partly deal with his own feelings of being looked-down-on. At his first quidditch match, he gets fully and enthusiastically into his role as Seeker, at least until the broom-hexing incident. He signs up to stay at Hogwarts for Christmas and "doesn't feel sorry for himself at all" about not having a home to go to. He defines his friends and enemies sharply, but this is an improvement on his previous feeling that he was isolated in a world of undifferentiated hostility. He confronts his fantasies, and their limits, in the mirror of Erised.
[continued . . . ]
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Date: 2005-01-25 09:32 am (UTC)And after all the work he does on himself in the third quarter, all the story threads move to their climax in the fourth quarter.
By the way, when I use the word "quarter" I mean it literally. I'm kind of obsessive about structure, and I tend to count pages and do all sorts of flaky things like that to see how a book like this divides into parts or "acts." PS/SS seems to fall into a prologue-and-three-acts structure, each almost exactly one quarter of the 309 pages in my U.S. edition. Harry meets Draco on page 77, which exactly demarcates the division between fairy-tale first quarter from the social uneasiness of the second quarter. The midpoint of the book, page 154, falls right between the two parts of the current chapter, right at the start of the midnight trip to duel with Draco that turns into the encounter with Fluffy. Maybe I'm anal about that stuff, but I think that kind of evidence reinforces a sense of JKR's care in designing her story, and supports the idea that the pattern of fantasy/anxiety-about-repetition/breakthrough is a key part of her theme.
Anyway, that's my theory of the day. Anyone wanna argue?
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Date: 2005-01-26 04:07 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-01-26 06:05 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-02-06 02:31 pm (UTC)> Anyone wanna argue?
Not in the slightest. Whether it was as conscious as this on the part of JKR during the writing, I can't say, but I think your after-the-fact analysis of Harry's character here is dead on. Kudos to you.
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Date: 2005-02-06 08:04 pm (UTC)Whether it was as conscious as this on the part of JKR during the writing, I can't say
My own hobbyhorse relating to JKR is that people underestimate her craftiness. I suppose to some extent this is typical of the disproprtion of effort and self-consciousness between writer and reader in any case: someone spends a year creating something that takes three hours to consume. I suspect there is a great deal of planning and puppetmastery that goes into the design of a book like this, though of course half the art is in concealing it. That, in turn, is what makes it fun to do detective work and make hypotheses about how the thing is put together -- what the tricks are.
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Date: 2005-02-07 11:56 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-02-07 11:07 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-02-07 11:12 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-02-07 11:41 pm (UTC)I'm fascinated by what you say about being "too upset to express properly." Brava (o?) to you! (though your username strongly suggest "-a") I think the fascination of HP is that it really is a "moral" story and hooks you emotionally on issues that seem really, really important to get right. So that the starting point of these discussions is sometimes genuine indignation over a difference, or at least the sense that something urgent is at stake.
And then, of course, ideally you refine the discussion itself into something politer, just out of good manners, or respect for the other person's equally restrained passion, or the experience of being utterly wrongheaded once or twice in the past. I don't think that necessarily dispenses with the strong feelings behind the argument, it just channels them, and leaves them open to further refinement through friendly discussion.
I find arguing about HP addictive, and have to ration my time on it. There are so many puzzles to think about. :)
"a" indeed.
Date: 2005-02-09 02:19 am (UTC)Politeness in discourse is paramount, of course, to getting anything across, and that I find I can generally maintain without issue. I just rather dislike debate and find that once I'm in a hot-button argument, my ability to channel my thoughts into logical words tends to drop dramatically. There is a very fine line between discussion, which I am all for, and argument, which I am terrible at, so I tend to be a bit shy with my opinions outside of the safe space of my journal.
Which is why I am so pleased to find others carrying on the debate intelligently in my absence.
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Date: 2005-01-25 10:01 am (UTC)I love you for saying this. I harbour this secret fondness for Parvati and it annoys me that she is considered to share a brain with Lavender. Parvati does giggle and admire Professor Trewlawney, but she is also very outspoken against injustice in several instances throughout the books. In PoA, she is the third person apart from Harry and Hermione to stand up to Snape when he takes the DADA class and in OotP, Rowling makes a point of emphasising that it's Lavender who distrusts Harry. Apparently, Parvati believes in his version of the story. I'm pretty certain there are more examples of Parvati speaking up, but I don't have the books on me to go looking for them.
I know we've touched this subject of Parvati vs. Lavender before, as I remember you saying that you did sympathise with Lavender after her bunny died, but I think it's worth another mention.
Neville mostly
Date: 2005-01-25 10:05 am (UTC)Continuing from an earlier thread, I think Neville does like her (platonically at least). Why wouldn't he? She cares about his toad for one thing.
He thought of Hagrid, expelled but allowed to stay on as gamekeeper. Perhaps he could be Hagrid's assistant. His stomach twisted as he imagined it, watching Ron and the others becoming wizards while he stumped around the grounds, carrying Hagrid's bag. (112)
This hurts every time I read it.
I think of what it was like for poor Hagrid to see *his* peers become wizards, while he was the gamekeeper's assistant. (And imagine watching Tom Riddle strut about the place!) Though Hagrid does a heck of a lot less feeling sorry for himself than Harry does.
'Excuse me, Professor Flitwick, could I borrow Wood for a moment?'
Wood? thought Harry, bewildered; was Wood a cane she was going to use on him? (112)
HA! Only in fic, Harry...
Giggle!
Neville doesn't come with them in the movie, and indeed, I can't think of a narrative reason that he does in the book. As he says, Madam Pomfrey mended him in an instant, so JKR's not stuck with him being there, she chose it. Why?
We'll see what happens in the last 2 books, but I think Neville is going to be very important to the Big Showdown with Voldemort (tm). Why else is he there and/or mentioned when he doesn't have to be, e.g. on the Knight Bus in POA? And his character is really expanded in OTP.
It never occurs to Harry and Ron that Draco would use his House traits and defeat them with cunning instead of brute force.
Well, Harry and Ron have a habit of misjudging their enemies. (And friends for that matter.)
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Date: 2005-01-25 02:47 pm (UTC)Meantime, Neville. I can thing of two things. First, JRK originally planned to have Neville in a more central role earlier in the series, but things got changed around and he didn't get his central role until much later. He had something more important to do in this book but it got lost in the editing.
Second possibility, she just uses it to help develop the reader's understanding of Neville's character. I don't really go for this one, though, because it seems unnecessary.
Third possibility (because I can't count), it's random. I think she has quite a few random loose ends in this book, because I'm not sure she ever believed the series would be developed further.
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Date: 2005-01-25 04:02 pm (UTC)It seems like this kind of construction comes up a lot in the series. Harry's always surprised at how much yet another person can suck and make him angry. It makes for a very angry atmosphere the more it builds up over the years. Letting go is very foreign to this universe.
Methinks Harry has a persecution complex.
One thing that's sort of funny with Draco, as opposed to Dudley, is that while Dudley persecuted Harry for no reason Harry was the first to show hostility to Draco. Not that Draco's reaction isn't completely OTT, but you can see he's constantly trying to get his own back. He's not targetting Harry as just being vulnerable and harassing him. He's insulted. I just always find it interesting when this gets brushed over so that Harry had nothing to do with the situation at all, like with Dudley. That Harry had excellent reasons for not shaking Malfoy's hand that show us his superior nature doesn't change that.
or maybe that's _why_ she's particularly sensitive to bullying now.
You know, it's interesting to think about this because in PoA doesn't McGonogall sound very fond of MWPP? Granted they're dead, but I still honestly can't remember her speaking that way about the Trio in years to come, even if they died. If we thought of how McGonogall compares Harry to his father (since everybody else does) I get the feeling James was probably able to manipulate her in ways Harry can't with his personality. Let's face it, doesn't it seem like James had a way with female teachers, especially older ones? It does to me, somehow.
And ah, how do I love Pansy? She's such a pitch-perfect Mean Girl (at least the way I remember them).
LOL! Totally. And Parvati has always been subtly different than Lavender. I assume she is a Pureblood.
I love that Draco does this. It never occurs to Harry and Ron that Draco would use his House traits and defeat them with cunning instead of brute force.
And yet amazingly fandom sometimes forgets this. Just recently I saw somebody include this as more evidence that Malfoy's a coward, because he "chickened out" of the duel in first year. Now, I love Cowardly!Custard!Draco but in this case, he didn't chicken out, it was a set up from the beginning! One of the rare times when Malfoy actually has a good plan, but the universe doesn't pan out the way he expects. (Wile E. Coyote of the Potterverse.)
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Date: 2005-01-25 04:19 pm (UTC)It has implications for the ad nauseam discussion of whether anti-pureblood prejudice is the WW equivalent of racism - particularly as colour-based racism doesn't seem to exist.
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Date: 2005-01-25 05:26 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-02-06 02:48 pm (UTC)I don't think it's quite all a matter of "bloodism", as it were -- Malfoy (IMO) reeks of good old fashioned classism as well, and I'm sure he would look down on "trailer park" purebloods as much as he does mudbloods.
I've always thought that if he weren't magical, Lucius Malfoy would be an obnoxious Tory in the House of Lords, or if not minor nobility, an obnoxious Tory backbencher in Commons instead. Draco is going down the same path quite nicely.
(If you think about it, there has to be a magical constituency in the House of Commons, because Fudge is a Minister in Her Majesty's Government -- he's a member of Parliament.)
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Date: 2005-01-25 04:25 pm (UTC)I still honestly can't remember her speaking that way about the Trio in years to come, even if they died.
Should read "I still honestly can't IMAGINE her speaking that way..."
McGonagall and mwpp
Date: 2005-01-25 06:03 pm (UTC)Like in POA where she says how regretful she is that she treated Peter harshly. I got the feeling she was only feeling guilty because he had died a gruesome death. If he had lived to a grand old age she wouldn't have cared how harshly she dealt with him, she would still see him as the annoying student (or however she saw him before his death). I am not even sure if this is making any sense so I'll quit.
I am sure part of her fondness was that James was charming. The worst trouble makers usually do have teachers wrapped around their finger.
Re: McGonagall and mwpp
Date: 2005-01-26 01:31 am (UTC)I also agree that James (and Sirius too) probably flirted shamelessly with McGonagall and did have her right where they wanted her. (I can see the twins doing the same thing in the present day, something Harry would probably miss.) I think sistermagpie makes a great point that, despite his physical resemblance to James, harry simply doesn't have the type of personality to successfully charm and manipulate McGonagall the way James (probably) did.
Re: McGonagall and mwpp
Date: 2005-01-26 03:08 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-01-25 05:21 pm (UTC)Even though Hermione and Neville teamed up to find Trevor on the first day. Harry is rather dense from the get-go, isn't he?
It's hard not to wonder where this eagle eye was in the days when MWPP were going after Snape... or maybe that's _why_ she's particularly sensitive to bullying now.
I doubt you can say that. She is pretty conscientious about disciplining the students, but she is also quite willing for them to get roughed up in the course of lessons, and she looks back on MWPP *very* fondly.
And ah, how do I love Pansy? She's such a pitch-perfect Mean Girl (at least the way I remember them).
She's certainly the ruler of her little clique. I bet Hermione dreads dealing with her, but Lavender and Parvati have an easier time because they know and enjoy the system.
I won't say he likes her, but at least doesn't dislike her, which is about as far as he ever goes.
I'd say he likes her, as he's very pleasant to her when she comes out of the hospital at the end of OotP. For a moment there, I thought he was going to break down and hug her!
They got the map their first year. It's not like they found everything on their own.
Now that's an interesting point. The question is did Fred and George get in so much trouble because they had the Map, and did it encourage them (since it can pick up on its users desires a bit -- when Harry wanted to get out of the castle, it showed him the secret passage *and* the password!)
Neville doesn't come with them in the movie, and indeed, I can't think of a narrative reason that he does in the book
To show Neville's character, and perhaps set him up for the end of the book when he tried to stop the Trio? Plus setting him up for later in the series, of course...
It never occurs to Harry and Ron that Draco would use his House traits and defeat them with cunning instead of brute force.
It's certainly why Gryffindors have a reputation for being as un-cunning as possible in fannish circles. Harry and Ron look just a wee bit dim here.
On the other hand, 11-year-old boys would so arrange a meeting with the purpose of beating each other up. Draco being sneaky and using it against them does make him somewhat atypical for his age.
no subject
Date: 2005-01-25 07:14 pm (UTC)----
I'd say he likes her, as he's very pleasant to her when she comes out of the hospital at the end of OotP. For a moment there, I thought he was going to break down and hug her!
Hell, Snape doesn't even seem to mind when McGonagall starts awarding points left and right to Gryffindor and Ravenclaw! That's real
lust lovefriendship right there!Forget Remus/Severus or Sirius/Severus or any of those other Snape ships! Minerva/Severus is my Snape OTP! :P
On the other hand, 11-year-old boys would so arrange a meeting with the purpose of beating each other up. Draco being sneaky and using it against them does make him somewhat atypical for his age.
And it's a real pity that this is one of the last flashes of real cunning that Draco ever gets to display-- at least, the last one that doesn't horribly misfire for circumstances for beyond his control. Even some of his more creative schemes-- like dressing up as a Dementor or throwing the Gryffindors off with "Weasley is Our Kind"-- almost inevitably land him into hot water. He really can't triumph anymore now that JKR has decided she wants nothing more to do with him.
Poor bugger. If he weren't such a racist snot, I'd almost feel bad for him.
no subject
Date: 2005-01-25 05:44 pm (UTC)It doesn't occur to Harry that Neville might be interested in what Hermione is saying, or that he might simply like her.
I always assumed that this was something that Neville had made plain to the others in a bit of dialouge but that just didn't need including in the book.
I think that Neville goes with them to show how important Neville WILL be. We're never allowed to forget about Neville - he keeps appearing throughout the books, despite occasionally having no place there. The movies cut most of this out but they do keep him in there occasionally "Why is it always me?" in CoS for example. It's interesting because it seems so random but actually ...
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Date: 2005-01-26 01:34 am (UTC)This could be wishful fangirl thinking, but it occurs to me that the same could be said about Draco.
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Date: 2005-01-26 10:24 pm (UTC)newbie's comment
Date: 2005-01-26 12:22 am (UTC)What an odd reaction! Sounds more like something Hagrid would say.
I think it's absolutely Ron. It's part of Ron's sense of humor to start with imitating what other people said and turn everything upside down just by rephrasing it. For example: 'Can I have a look at Uranus, too, Lavender?' (GoF, Chapter 13)
Re: newbie's comment
Date: 2005-01-27 07:22 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-01-26 12:38 am (UTC)Also the first piece of evidence that Parvati is NOT Lavender. Most people tend to lump them together as pretty, flighty girls obsessed with their looks. Parvati is probably much smarter than Lavender. She has a really good way of standing up to teachers respectfully. Look at any classroom scene where there is a student-teacher conflict. Harry and Ron will fume. Hermione will try to prove that she knows better than the teacher. Dean, Seamus and Lavender will whine. Parvati will ask a relevant, concrete, logical question.
no subject
Date: 2005-01-27 07:21 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-02-11 12:36 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-01-26 01:20 am (UTC)They got the map their first year, yes, but surely not the first week?
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Date: 2005-01-27 07:16 am (UTC)