the big picture in xf and hp

[pauraque_bk]

On the Harem list, maidenjedi wrote:
Marita, unlike Diana and Scully, knows what is at stake. She knows better than anyone, except maybe Cassandra Spender. She's conducted tests and been the subject of them.
...
CSM is a lot like her in this way, I think. He sees the very big picture, that to save anyone is going to take sacrifices that some people (Bill Mulder) aren't willing to make.

I quite agree with all of this, and I think it applies to both Marita and CSM. It also struck me that these things could be said of Snape as well.

Snape also sees the big picture, when frequently others don't. He's seen the Voldemort conflict from both ends, and is still playing both sides of the fence to a certain extent (we're led to believe that he's loyal to Dumbledore, but as with Marita, we don't know his true loyalties for certain, or even if he has any).

Though Snape certainly can be petty, his complaints start to make sense when taken together. For example, in PoA, he says something that I think is very telling -- that they're not doing Harry any favours by failing to discipline him. It sounds like he's thinking even farther ahead than the defeat of Voldemort -- it won't necessarily help to be rid of Voldemort if they're then left with a young wizard more powerful than Voldemort was, who has violent impulses, no sense of discipline, no respect for authority, has never been asked to control himself, and is willing to kill for revenge. The idea of Harry as a Dark wizard has been done plenty in fic, and I don't think Snape's apparent fear of that outcome is unfounded.

Marita sees the big picture too, very much so, for the reasons Maidenjedi mentioned. However, Snape and Marita both lack the confidence and self-righteousness that we see in both Voldemort and CSM (as well as Dumbledore and Mulder). CSM, particularly, was dead sure he was in the right, and no matter what actions he took, he thought it was for the world's own good. I see some of that in Voldemort too. But Snape and Marita are realists; they don't see themselves as the heroes of their own movies, as many of the people around them clearly do. They don't see themselves as inherently Right -- they're aware of their own fallibility, and are just doing their best to keep their heads above water and do what they can to stop the massive destruction that is imminent in both their respective universes. But they're very much tangled up in personal conflicts and fears. Their stories aren't epics -- they're only human -- and that's probably why they're both so interesting to me.

maidenjedi also wrote:
She can't go and lead a normal life, not knowing what she knows.

Again, true. And again, true of Snape. I doubt that Snape will survive Book Seven, but if he does, he'll be in much the same position as Marita would be if the colonists were defeated, the conspiracy dismantled, and she was left standing. What else would there be to do? I think Snape is quite literally living to see Voldemort defeated, and once that's done, I don't think he'd want to keep teaching, or have anything to do with any of the people involved in the struggle. It's hard to say what he would do... we don't really know what his interests are, since he's basically been forced into his current position. Marita may have genuinely wanted to pursue public service, but she could hardly go back to that. She's presumably in hiding after "The Truth", but when there's no one left to hide from, what next?

Hm. Bleak futures for Snape and Marita. Poor kids. This probably explains why I was so taken with the vignette where vaznetti put them together.

Comments

[gelliaclodiana]

As you guessed, I do find this essay interesting. Thanks for sharing it.

The idea of Harry as a Dark wizard has been done plenty in fic, and I don't think Snape's apparent fear of that outcome is unfounded.

Snape, unlike Dumbledore or, for that matter, Mulder, lacks a deeply-help belief in the essential goodness of other people. This is hardly surprising, given his history, but I think it informs his attitude toward everyone around him: he thinks that most people, given the opportunity, will do the wrong thing.

I'm not sure that Marita feels the same way. I think she does have slightly more faith in humanity, if not in all human beings.

However, Snape and Marita both lack the confidence and self-righteousness that we see in both Voldemort and CSM (as well as Dumbledore and Mulder).

And this is why the two characters appeal to me, as a writer. I have trouble getting my head around the kind of certainty I see in CSM or Dumbledore. Marita and Snape are realists: they know that the world is imperfect (and not perfectable), but they're willing to get their hands dirty to do what they can to avoid utter disaster.

I doubt that Snape will survive Book Seven, but if he does, he'll be in much the same position as Marita would be if the colonists were defeated, the conspiracy dismantled, and she was left standing.

I don't think either of them expect to survive. But you're right--even a victory would be of no use to them. Hm. it opens interesting possibilities for fanfic.

Thanks again. You might want to post a link to the Harem list, in case lurkers who were interested in the discussion there would want to see this.

[pauraque]

Snape, unlike Dumbledore or, for that matter, Mulder, lacks a deeply-help belief in the essential goodness of other people. This is hardly surprising, given his history, but I think it informs his attitude toward everyone around him: he thinks that most people, given the opportunity, will do the wrong thing.

I agree, though I think of it a bit differently. I'd say he's seen such an array of shocking acts that he views human behavior as just another random variable, entirely unpredictable. Any schoolboy can attempt murder. Any wizard can turn Dark. Nothing should be left to chance or taken for granted.

I'm not sure that Marita feels the same way. I think she does have slightly more faith in humanity, if not in all human beings.

I see that too. I feel like she wants to trust people, but knows there are no suitable candidates available. She knows she must always be careful, but I don't think it's as embedded in her nature as it is for Snape or, say, Krycek. I think not trusting people, for her, is exhausting work.

I have trouble getting my head around the kind of certainty I see in CSM or Dumbledore.

Yeah. It's hard for me to know what to do with CSM, since he doesn't seem to feel doubt. We see his assurance crack a couple of times (when he can't kill Cassandra, for example), but those are just momentary lapses; he doesn't learn or change from them. CSM is not a sane man. And, for that matter, neither is Dumbledore. I'm very curious about what goes on in their heads when they're not actively playing puppetmaster.

I see a lot of parallels between CSM and Dumbledore, actually. They're both master orchestrators -- at the height of their power, nothing goes on that they didn't plan or weren't aware of. They're also quite manipulative when it suits their plans; Dumbledore is clearly manipulating Harry by withholding information, only giving small tidbits to lead him along. As I was saying before, I think Snape's concern is that while Dumbledore is grooming Harry to be used for his own purposes (however benevolent they may be), he's failing to consider whether he might inadvertently turn Harry into a threat. Dumbledore is taking a risk, but I'd bet it's a calculated one.

I'd say both CSM and Dumbledore are calculating and cunning in the extreme. Dumbledore would have done well in Slytherin... (Actually, do we know for certain that he was in Gryffindor? I don't remember.)

I don't think either of them expect to survive. But you're right--even a victory would be of no use to them.

I don't think they expect to survive either. I'd be hesitant to say this of Marita, but I can see Snape looking ahead to his options after Voldemort's defeat, and concluding that he'd bloody well better die in the conflict. And in his pragmatic worldview, that outlook gives him more freedom. He has to stay alive right now, because that's how he's most useful. When that usefulness has expired, a desire for self-preservation would only be a hindrance to him.

Hm. it opens interesting possibilities for fanfic.

That it does...

[maidenjedi]

Oooo, CSM and Dumbledore. Now that's interesting. There are a lot of people who will say that Dumbledore is a manipulative, calculating SOB, and I can certainly see the grain of truth in that. When Harry is telling his story at the end of "Goblet of Fire", there is something about Dumbledore that just screams puppetmaster.

As for his House, I don't think we know one way or the other. But I also think that all great wizards, truly great wizards, are going to have some ambiguity about them. It is our choices that make us who we are, or so says Dumbledore. Slytherin ambition does not equate evil, just as Gryffindor courage does not equate good.

I don't think CSM ever feels doubt. I think it's more that he feels tired. He has this responsibility, and this perceived duty, and he wants out. Let someone else make the decisions. When that isn't an option, he takes on the mantel with nothing short of full acceptance and confidence. Remember what else I said, that CSM believes that he is in the right, that Mulder is in the wrong. He's not cracking when it comes to Cassandra in TF/OS, he's genuinely upset that she has to be sacrificed (in his mind). He's long since come to terms with the idea that he has to compromise his loved ones in order to achieve his ends for the greater good. Mulder and Scully are very wrong about him in "En Ami", I think. He's not out there for himself, at least not as he sees it. Mulder's the same way, which is why they're so ironic.

[pauraque]

There are a lot of people who will say that Dumbledore is a manipulative, calculating SOB, and I can certainly see the grain of truth in that.

I think it's hard to judge him at this point, since we don't fully understand the choices he's making yet. He's a brilliant strategist, and such people know that sacrifices must sometimes be made for the greater good. One of the sacrificed values may be honesty, but I don't think he's necessarily wrong in that. To expect to maintain all of one's principles in a war is probably too idealistic. If compromising his own character and possibly Harry's future well-being will save hundreds or thousands of lives, well... But again, it's hard to say -- we don't see the whole board.

Slytherin ambition does not equate evil, just as Gryffindor courage does not equate good.

Very true. And that ambiguity is what makes both Snape and Dumbledore so interesting.

I don't think CSM ever feels doubt. I think it's more that he feels tired. He has this responsibility, and this perceived duty, and he wants out. Let someone else make the decisions.

I see that in "Musings", but he doesn't come off that way for me elsewhere. I think of him as intensely controlling. He sees himself at the center of his own epic novel, the hero who saves the world. Mulder, as you mention, sees himself the same way... And maybe at times they do want to escape that pressure, but they've brought it on themselves. On some level, they do want it, maybe even need it. That's just my interpretation.

[maidenjedi]

I'm not sure that Marita feels the same way. I think she does have slightly more faith in humanity, if not in all human beings.

Yeah, I agree, I think she has more faith in humanity than Snape does. And more than Alex does, which is what makes them an interesting pair to head up (or whatever) the conspiracy post-CSM. They don't have the egotistical confidence that he had. Marita is scarred but, ironically, wants to believe in salvation. Alex doesn't and can't believe in it, but he can't stand the idea of losing. He doesn't want to give up even when he knows it's all going to hell.

Huh. More to noodle. I love it!