hp and the ender's game series

[pauraque_bk]

From an AIM conversation between a friend and me.

Her: I'm re-reading the Ender's Game series right now, and I find it's really interesting to compare the style of teacher-involvement at Hogwarts versus that at Ender's Battle School

Me: oh, that would be an interesting comparison. I should re-read it too.

Her: In Ender, the teachers have a non-interference policy, but they set Ender up for failure, and deliberately hide the consequences of his actions. Hogwarts teachers seem to have an unwritten, similar, code. They really don't interfere that often, they are by no means honest with their students, yet each teacher seems allowed to develop their own policy, such as treat-this-house-like-crap-and-treat-that-house-wonderfully. Yet nothing is done to stop/prevent it. Dumbledore seems as devious and almost evil as the Colonel in charge of Battle School. He's another one that interests me, actually. Dumbledore. In part because the 'good guys' all revere him and believe him to be so great, but he's consistantly shown himself to be quite fallible and anything but perfect with perfect judgement. In both universes, the people in charge of the children seem to be almost winging it

Me: you are dead right. Dumbledore is frickin' scary.
Me: and it really is a good parallel. in both cases, they're setting up a child to be a hero, without caring what it does to his psyche.

Her: Frankly, I have no clue what Dumbledore's done that makes him so great, other than getting rid of what's-his-face (you know who I mean, I'm just blanking on names today). Sure, he gives people a third, and fourth, and fifth chance which makes him seem compassionate. But compassion is not greatness.
Harry's going to grow up to be as fucked up as Ender, if not more so.
Her: At least Ender got 3000 years to get it right

Me: Grindelwald. and yes, Harry's going to be fucked up. I think Snape knows that, and it's part of what makes him so fucking frustrated.
Me: not because he cares about Harry as a person, but because he's afraid they're going to have another Voldemort on their hands.

Her: Ender's wife, in the later books, Novinha and Harry are a lot alike, in some ways. For both, everyone they love/care about ends up dead and they hold themselves responsible. And when you consider that love is supposedly what's saved Harry, it's extremely scary to think what he would be like if he refused to love or be loved.

Comments

[dphearson.livejournal.com]

To be fair.....
What goes in 'HP' in terms of the adults screwing up or being cruel is frightening true to life. And yes, teachers and parents do 'wing it', unfortunately. They do play favorites, spoil people and wonder "Oh, how did I go wrong?" when abused kids become rampagers. The adults in HP is just as prone to celebrity worship and gossip (G. Lockhart and the meaness towards Harry in the summer). JKR understands, with a very generous heart, I think, that childhood is not all lollipops and lemon drops, and that no amount of sugar can take away the bitterness of life when it is presented to you.

[pauraque]

But where we run into problems is when Dumbledore is presented as too realistically fallible, because: a) he presents himself as all-powerful, and b) the story presents him as all-powerful. If he's going to be set up as a god-figure, then yes, we're going to expect more from him than we would from an ordinary adult. Dumbledore isn't dealing with the everyday trivialities of raising ordinary children or running an ordinary school -- he is, by his own understanding, battling evil. He's saying "I am good and powerful enough to go up against this force", but he doesn't prove both of his premises. He's powerful enough, but is he *good* enough?

[mariagoner.livejournal.com]

Hmm. I don't think I quite agree with you. I think Dumbledore is almost always presented as the icon of the light side in the Harry Potte world. I agree he is often thought of as the best both morally and magically.

But I don't think he himself thinks he's the best. In fact, I get the feeling that he knows very well he is an old and sometimes foolish man who does wrong very often. (See his very poignant confession to Harry at the end of OOTP.) In fact, if anything, I believe that it is the people around him that are responsible to elevating Dumbledore into a God-like figure. He doesn't see that as his true role; I think it's really his burden.

And any man that looks like Plastic!Hippie!Jesus! can't be all bad, right?

[pauraque]

(See his very poignant confession to Harry at the end of OOTP.)

See, I didn't find that poignant, I found it absurd. I didn't think it was at all in keeping with his character as previously established. Where else in the series is he ever humble or self-deprecating? When else do we see him show doubt in his plans or abilities, or regret for his mistakes?

[shadowluck.livejournal.com]

*blinks* JKR and OSC.

Oh, the comparisons could just get scary.

[pauraque]

Truly. I haven't read Ender's Game in many years, but the core parallel seems very strong to me. The adults in Ender's life make him into a monster *completely* without his knowledge; he's just blindsided. I've always thought this was a danger with Harry, who tends to be preoccupied with what's in front of his face. And Dumbledore is a master long-range manipulator, no doubt.

I think Dumbledore is just incompetent

[dailyplanet.livejournal.com]

I really don't understand all the Dumbledore worship from the characters in these books. Ok sure, he pulled off a great victory in the past, but now it's Book 5 and he keeps making such grievous and befuddling errors. Not little things that are beyond his control either, but giant cock-ups!! He never seems to know what's going on in his school, although the book implies he's on top of everything at all times. Oh, he is, is he?

Not to mention, Harry and Snape in private lessons -- good for a laugh but it's like he doesn't know them at all. Dumbledore, HONESTLY! At this point I think I'd rather see Ron as head of the Order of the Phoenix. WEASLEY IS OUR KING!

[sedesdraconis.livejournal.com]

Just that comparison between Dumbledore and the Colonel has occured to me before. It's definitely some screwed up head JKR and Dumbledore are setting up for Harry. Sort of unexpected from the earlier books.

I mean, you expect Card to thoroughly maim his characters' minds, it's what he does (and he does it really well, practice I guess); but very few intelligent people have ever pretended he was a "Children's Author" (though certain major parts of the guiding ideas of the Ender books work to invalidate the idea that such a title has any inherent meaning).

[pauraque]

very few intelligent people have ever pretended he was a "Children's Author" (though certain major parts of the guiding ideas of the Ender books work to invalidate the idea that such a title has any inherent meaning).

That is very, very true.