slightly more organised OotP babble

[pauraque_bk]

First off, this was a surprisingly well-written book. It moved along much faster than any of the others (maybe a bit too fast by the end, but it's still a huge improvement from the endless exposition that bogged down GoF). JKR has always been a better storyteller than a poet, but her poetry has vastly improved. She's using all the senses for description now, which makes her prose far more absorbing.



Some things:

-Petunia came off looking pretty good... I've always secretly sympathised with her -- she sure puts up with a lot. I've had a Petunia-and-Snape-related plot bunny for a few weeks now, and I think I may actually finish it off this time.

-I also sympathised much more with Harry than I ever have before. I'm liking him much more as he grows up, wises up, and starts seeing the world in more shades of grey.

-JKR did finally succeed at making me hate a character when I was supposed to. Umbridge. LOATHSOME. Enough said. I was skeptical, however, of Harry's waffling between whom he hated more, Umbridge or Snape. I mean, come on -- Snape makes his nasty little comments, but that's hardly comparable to repeated physical abuse by someone who doesn't even have the excuse of ultimately being on the side of good. I just didn't buy it. It would have been more believable and dramatically effective if, at the point where Umbridge is questioning Snape, Harry found himself uncomfortably rooting for Snape to really cut her down. I would have liked that.

-That one point aside, I thought the interplay between Harry and Snape was great. Wonderfully touchy and prickly. H/S isn't my thing, but man -- all that kneeling on the dungeon floor, all that "I told you to call me sir", all that uncomfortable forced intimacy -- I have to admit it was kinda sexy. (In sort of the same way that it was sexy when Scully had Jeffrey on the examination table in "William", for those of you to whom that means something.)

-Cho. Whatever.

-Has anyone else noticed that Flitwick just completely rocks? He reminds me of a very cool teacher I once had, who had a way of thumbing his nose at too-stringent rules, and liked to hold classes outside when it was a nice day. Flitwick certainly seems to be a good teacher, too -- it's rare that we hear about someone having a hard time in Charms.

-Funny, we had that discussion a little while back about how Peter may not have been an accepted member of James's group, Sirius seemed to have a lot of contempt for him, etc. Looks as though we were right. Poor Peter.

-Poor Remus, too... In my later high school years, I was basically in Remus's position. Smart, responsible, pretty well-liked, sensitive, but unable to control the outrageous behavior of the kids around me. I felt for him.

-And oh boy did I ever feel for Snape. In my earlier school career (before I'd switched schools), I was... well, let's just say it was pretty bad. That chapter was wrenching for me to read. Yet vindicating at the same time, to have all my worst suspicions about Sirius -- and everything Snape ever said about James -- confirmed.

-And yet, after all that, Sirius's death really hurt, which surprised me. It was all about Harry, really -- just as he starts to understand his godfather as a real person, and starts to feel a genuine connection to the truth about his past (horrible as it may be), that connection is snatched away. Ouch.

-There seems to be a little continuity flaw in that James and Lily couldn't have been Head Boy and Head Girl if James wasn't a prefect. But that doesn't bother me much, as I'd never been fond of the idea of James as Head Boy anyhow.

-Tonks: I didn't like her. I found her annoying, I didn't see a dramatic point to the character, and I hate to think of the horrible crimes that will be perpetrated with her in fic (thought JKR can hardly be held accountable for that).

-Draco sure got the short end of the characterisation stick this time around. I don't want him to be Redeemed or anything, but some more depth would be nice. You've got to hand it to Dumbledore, though -- he chose Slytherin prefects who were popular with their own House, rather than picking whoever he liked. I'm not quite sure what to make of that yet.

-Here's what I still wonder: When Sirius was arrested, did Snape know he was innocent? Sure, Snape couldn't have proven Sirius wasn't a Death Eater (can't prove a negative, after all), but he probably suspected he wasn't, especially if he knew Peter was. (That's a big "if".) I guess the most likely scenario is that Snape believed Sirius had killed Peter, but with a different motivation than everyone else thought, and kept this information to himself.



That seems like a lot of complaints, but really, I loved the book. I think it's too soon to name it a new favorite, but it's certainly up there alongside PoA. My expectations were far exceeded. It's great to know that JKR is only getting better with practice.

I'm sure I'll have more later. It's still sinking in that all this is canon now.

Comments

[maidenjedi]

but it's certainly up there alongside PoA.

Oh yeah, definitely. It felt more like the sequel to PoA than GoF did, too, thanks to all the revelations about James, Sirius, and Remus.

Here's what I still wonder: When Sirius was arrested, did Snape know he was innocent?

Well, the Death Eaters are always masked, and I have a sneaking suspicion that Voldemort keeps some of his operatives in the dark about certain things. For instance, I think he might not have recruited or bore down on Pettigrew until he found out about the prophecy. Pettigrew might have been a lesser Death Eater, doing scut work and general spying instead of hardcore hits on Muggles, Muggleborns, etc. So assume that Snape had no idea about Pettigrew, either, and therefore couldn't "prove" that Sirius wasn't a Death Eater. Remember, too, that Dumbledore had suspected for awhile that there was a spy lurking in his midst and leaking information. I think that Snape would've tipped Dumbledore off if he'd known that someone so close to the center of the Order of the Phoenix was a double agent.

Draco sure got the short end of the characterisation stick this time around

Indeed, especially since he's got to be in training for his own spell as a Death Eater. Unless he's got no style at all, and really is just the spoiled brat child of a Death Eater that we've known all this time. Which I refuse to believe, but don't expect corrected in canon.

Poor Peter.

No kidding. I was rather ticked off that JKR did that.

that's hardly comparable to repeated physical abuse by someone who doesn't even have the excuse of ultimately being on the side of good

Well, except that Harry's known Snape forever, and Snape's grudge was never about power, really. It was petty and childish and the Pensieve proved it. Snape hasn't grown up - neither had Sirius, come to think of it. Umbridge was horrible, but from Harry's POV, physical violence is easier to overcome, he's succeeded at that. Mental abuse, something he's put up with for so long he might not fully realize the damage it caused, is worse to him. I don't know....I have a lot of thoughts about the "abuse issue" as it will surely come to be called.

Cho. Whatever

No kidding.

[pauraque]

Remember, too, that Dumbledore had suspected for awhile that there was a spy lurking in his midst and leaking information.

I didn't remember that, actually. Where is it mentioned?

I think that Snape would've tipped Dumbledore off if he'd known that someone so close to the center of the Order of the Phoenix was a double agent.

Well, you'd certainly hope so. But I suspect that even if Snape had doubts about Sirius's role in the murders (whether he knew about Peter or not), he might have let Sirius go to Azkaban out of sheer vengeful spite. It might even have seemed like justice in Snape's eyes -- perhaps Sirius wasn't guilty of murder, but we know Snape still thinks he was guilty of attempted murder at least.

Umbridge was horrible, but from Harry's POV, physical violence is easier to overcome, he's succeeded at that. Mental abuse, something he's put up with for so long he might not fully realize the damage it caused, is worse to him.

That's true, but it wasn't just physical with Umbridge either; I didn't mean to imply that. In forcing Harry to injure himself, and to confess lies he hadn't told, she was definitely messing with his head. I don't know, I guess I just think that in a book where Harry has this moment of profound empathy with Snape, it would have been more satisfying for there to be echoes of that in other parts of the story. All I can say is that as written, it doesn't entirely ring true for me. ::shrug::

[maidenjedi]

I didn't remember that, actually. Where is it mentioned?

In the chapter "The Servant of Lord Voldemort" in Prisoner of Azkaban, both Sirius and Remus talk about there being a spy in their midst, and that Peter had been chosen as Secret-Keeper over Remus because Sirius suspected that Remus could be the spy.

Well, you'd certainly hope so. But I suspect that even if Snape had doubts about Sirius's role in the murders (whether he knew about Peter or not), he might have let Sirius go to Azkaban out of sheer vengeful spite.

Now that, I have no trouble believing. Snape has proven a number of times that his grudge is strong enough to allow Sirius to go to Azkaban regardless of whether he knew him to be a Death Eater or not. What I meant, though, is that I doubt Snape would have known that Sirius or Peter were Death Eaters and not told Dumbledore. It could have compromised *him* to have a fellow OotP member lurking as a Death Eater, and he wouldn't want that (he is a Slytherin, after all, and his own ambition comes first).

That's true, but it wasn't just physical with Umbridge either; I didn't mean to imply that. In forcing Harry to injure himself, and to confess lies he hadn't told, she was definitely messing with his head.

She tried, at any rate. But I likened it unto Voldemort's taunting him with visions of his parents, or Tom Riddle's holding Ginny Weasley as bait for Harry. Also, the physical abuse she inflicted was something no other person in Harry's life had tried, other than Voldemort. Snape was always vengeful. Also, Harry could understand why Umbridge would be against him, and never quite understood why Snape was. Even after that moment of empathy with Snape, Harry wasn't convinced that his father's actions warranted Snape's vengeful attitude toward all students - the way he treats Neville, for instance, echoes the way James and Sirius treated *him*.

I agree, it doesn't really ring very true. I guess I'm playing devil's advocate because this is a really fascinating discussion.

[(Anonymous)]

I didn't remember that, actually. Where is it mentioned?

In the chapter "The Servant of Lord Voldemort" in Prisoner of Azkaban, both Sirius and Remus talk about there being a spy in their midst, and that Peter had been chosen as Secret-Keeper over Remus because Sirius suspected that Remus could be the spy.

And Fudge explicitly stated it when Harry was eavesdropping in the Three Broomsticks (I think the chapter is "The Marauders' Map).

[pauraque]

Snape's grudge was never about power, really. It was petty and childish and the Pensieve proved it.

But to me, that's more forgivable than Umbridge's simple sadism and lust for power. Snape's cruelty comes from his own pain, which is much easier for me to sympathize with. Maybe Harry doesn't feel the same way.

[maidenjedi]

I definitely agree that Snape is more forgivable than Umbridge, but after I saw exactly *why* his grudge started (the famed Prank I can understand, of course), I was really pissed at him. Now I get Lupin's attitude toward him a little better - Snape's got a schoolboy grudge that he can't let go of for the sake of the Order and the destruction of Voldemort (his treatment of Harry and their split really pissed me off). Sirius was no better, and in that respect, it was a painful read for me. Harry sympathizes with Snape, who can't see past the end of his crooked nose (and look at the way he treats Neville!).

Umbridge's sadistic nature is scarier, darker, and puts her on par with Voldemort, an enemy that Harry has defeated and knows, on some level, that he can deal with; Snape makes his daily life hell and has for a long time, without ever explaining himself. And Umbridge's hatred of Harry seemed, to me, not so much personal as a hatred stemming from her Ministry ties and ambitious ways. I can see your POV, of course, and I do agree, but Harry doesn't seem to be able to abide that he has a personal enemy in his own camp. Umbridge he can lump with the dark forces he has to fight.

:::shrug::: Either way, I think we can agree about the exact level of evil in both Snape and Umbridge. And I do sympathize with Young!Snape.

[pauraque]

Even after that moment of empathy with Snape, Harry wasn't convinced that his father's actions warranted Snape's vengeful attitude toward all students - the way he treats Neville, for instance, echoes the way James and Sirius treated *him*.

Good point. I'm going to go ahead and make a sweeping generalisation, and say that all abusers were abused. Illogical as it seems, it can be extremely difficult not to do to others what's been done to you, especially if you're like Snape and have neither a very good sense of yourself as a responsible adult, nor any perspective on the situation.

However, not all victims of abuse go on to be abusers. The responsibility definitely lies with Snape to recognise what he's doing and stop. The abuse he suffered doesn't excuse or justify his behavior -- it merely explains it.

Actually, I was thinking we might get some further explanation as to why Snape targets Neville specifically, but now I'm not so sure we're going to. As horrible as it is, I suspect Snape just sees weakness and exploits it, like a predator taking the sick and wounded. He probably did the same thing to younger/weaker kids when he was in school, if he could get away with it.

Snape's got a schoolboy grudge that he can't let go of for the sake of the Order and the destruction of Voldemort

Snape probably thinks he has let it go sufficiently. He's able to tolerate Lupin well enough, but Lupin makes it very easy for him to do that. Lupin clearly feels guilty about not moderating his friends' behavior, and if he actively dislikes Snape, he hides it well (even when he doesn't know Snape is listening, as in the Shrieking Shack in PoA).

Snape shows a remarkable lack of responsibility in this. He clearly thinks it's up to everyone else to accommodate him, and if they do, he'll hold his peace. But it never occurs to him to take the high ground on his own initiative. He still sees himself as a victim, and this informs all his actions. In his mind, he's already so put-upon in being asked to spy for Dumbledore (which must have been his choice, but he seems to forget that) that it's obviously too much to ask for him to make nice with his old enemies as well. I also don't think he really understands the authority he holds over his students. He still feels like the persecuted kid struggling to defend himself, not the terrifying professor handing out humiliating criticism and insults. I think it would surprise him to know how much pain he's really causing.

(his treatment of Harry and their split really pissed me off).

Why?

Harry doesn't seem to be able to abide that he has a personal enemy in his own camp. Umbridge he can lump with the dark forces he has to fight.

Now this, I can grok. The more Harry finds out about Snape, the muddier the good/bad distinction gets, and the more Harry's discomfort grows. A personal enemy who's working against you, you fight; a personal enemy who's working with you, you learn to tolerate. The latter is definitely the more difficult task for Harry. And for Snape, and for Sirius. Lupin is the only one who seems to have gotten the tolerance-for-the-good-of-the-cause thing down.

I guess I'm playing devil's advocate because this is a really fascinating discussion.

Feel free. I love good debate. :)

[maidenjedi]

However, not all victims of abuse go on to be abusers. The responsibility definitely lies with Snape to recognise what he's doing and stop. The abuse he suffered doesn't excuse or justify his behavior -- it merely explains it.

Exactly, as it also explains Sirius (not so much James, but I'm chalking his behavior up to bigheaded fifteen-year-old boy, and not necessarily abuse or neglect).

suspect Snape just sees weakness and exploits it, like a predator taking the sick and wounded.

Yes, and takes particular advantage of doing so to Gryffindors, or anyone not-Slytherin. No doubt he's picked up on Draco's superior behavior (and he can't do anything there, with his appearance of being tied to the Malfoys politically), or Crabbe and Goyle's slow-wittedness. This all goes back to a Slytherin's predisposition to look after him/herself first and foremost, and it also ties in with Snape's position as a double agent. All the usual rules get reworked because we're talking about a man who has had to redefine himself on other people's terms and doesn't like it much. He gets in his licks where and how he can.

(his treatment of Harry and their split really pissed me off).

Why?

Because Dumbledore had directed Snape to teach Harry Occlumency, and Snape is well aware of why this has to be done. He knows, probably better than any member of the Order, what is at stake, and he lets his childhood grudge against Harry's father get in the way of this. Snape's refusal to continue tutoring Harry is one of the myriad of reasons that Sirius died. Granted, Harry's behavior is one of the reasons he and Snape split the way they did, but Snape's the adult in the situation, and knows things that Harry does not. It was his responsibility to follow through on Dumbledore's orders. Snape's private treatment of Harry, the barely contained cruelty and open disdain, points, to me, to Snape's vast immaturity. We've discussed the fact that Sirius and Peter were denied the chance to grow up, and I'll add Snape to that list. And in Snape's case, it was also a refusal to do so. I don't know, he just bothers me in those sections of the book, and his "redemption" seems to hold less water now. I really want to know what made him come back to Dumbledore and break with the Death Eaters in the first place. I really want to *like* Severus Snape.

[pauraque]

it also explains Sirius (not so much James, but I'm chalking his behavior up to bigheaded fifteen-year-old boy, and not necessarily abuse or neglect).

Yes. It sure looks like James is taking his cues from Sirius -- he starts in on Snape because Sirius is bored. Sirius is clearly the heart of the group. James wants to please him. Remus is afraid to contradict him (as someone else mentioned, Remus was probably grateful to have any friends at all). Peter lets Sirius walk all over him, probably to avoid being a target of the same kind of humiliation they dish out to Snape. Young Sirius is outgoing, charismatic, attractive -- and cruel. We all knew guys like this in high school. You don't want to be on his bad side, but it's not always a walk in the park to be on his good side either, as Remus and Peter could no doubt attest.

All the usual rules get reworked because we're talking about a man who has had to redefine himself on other people's terms and doesn't like it much. He gets in his licks where and how he can.

This is dead on. He turned his back on everything he'd ever done and believed, and whatever sense he had of himself as a young adult had to be thrown away. I think this is essentially why he behaves so childishly -- he's clinging to the roles he played as a child, because it seems too frighteningly daunting to take it all apart and build up some adult roles from scratch.

I agree that Snape is choosing not to grow up. People don't hang onto pain for no reason -- if childish anger and resentment are all you know, they can, ironically, be very comforting. Keeping your anger can be a way of defining yourself and salvaging some dignity -- never admitting you were entirely wrong. I think this applies to Snape.

Snape's refusal to continue tutoring Harry is one of the myriad of reasons that Sirius died.

True. I wonder what the fallout's going to look like when everyone realises this.

It was his responsibility to follow through on Dumbledore's orders.

Yes, it was. But he probably expected Harry to go to Dumbledore, and Dumbledore to come back and prod him to continue teaching Harry. Then he could abdicate responsibility for it-- "It wasn't that I got over being angry at Harry, it was just that Dumbledore forced the issue."

I really want to know what made him come back to Dumbledore and break with the Death Eaters in the first place. I really want to *like* Severus Snape.

I don't know if I do want to like him. I think the fact that he's such a difficult character is what makes him so interesting to me. He's sympathetic, and yet not. He's a challenge to the analyst -- and the writer. I am very curious about what made him come back to Dumbledore, though. I expect we'll learn that in Book Seven.

[neotoma.livejournal.com]

I think half the reason that he's still so childish in his mid-30s is that he is stuck at that damned school, where he's been since he was eleven.

He was away for all of three, maybe four, years before he came back to teach. There would have been students who remembered him as a seventh year, not to mention the fact that all the teachers remember him as a student. He's like a root-bound plant there.

[pauraque]

This is a very, very good point. I'd thought about the awkwardness of your teachers becoming your co-workers, but it hadn't occurred to me that his classmates had become his students. If you're 21, and you're expected to teach students who are 17 and 18 and remember you as the weird kid who always got picked on, well... You can see where he might have got the idea that he needs to frighten and humiliate his students into submission. And it makes perfect sense that he'd continue to behave childishly -- almost nothing has changed. The scenery is the same, many of the faces are the same, and he's still the outcast everybody makes fun of. Those first few years, his class must have been a nightmare. If anything, he's probably mellowed out since then....

[tangledaria.livejournal.com]

In sort of the same way that it was sexy when Scully had Jeffrey on the examination table in "William", for those of you to whom that means something.

Ohh! Very good analogy! As an Ex-X-Phile, I know exactly what you're talking about.

I also sympathised much more with Harry than I ever have before. I'm liking him much more as he grows up, wises up, and starts seeing the world in more shades of grey.

Me too. I think the reason I like 'Chamber of Secrets' so much is that everyone hates Harry in that one. They just don't automatically accept him as this saviour of wizardkind. And in OotP, he sees that people still don't trust him (though with good reason this time), and that the world isn't at all as it seems and isn't likely to change any time soon.

Cho. Whatever.

Honestly. Does anyone really behave like that?

[pauraque]

Honestly. Does anyone really behave like that?

I've known teenaged girls to act that way. It's not that I thought it wasn't believable, it's just that I didn't find it interesting. There was so much else going on that it seemed irrelevant. But it's a minor complaint, since it takes up so little of the book's time. I worry that it will be handled badly when it comes time for movie # 5, though.

[deslea.livejournal.com]

(In sort of the same way that it was sexy when Scully had Jeffrey on the examination table in "William", for those of you to whom that means something.)

Perfect analogy.

Leaving the rest alone, because I need to work out my own thoughts, but for now...yes. Lots to chew on here, lots I agree with you about.