On the (im)possibility of Snape knowing about Peter

[pauraque_bk]

In the course of the discussion on whether Dumbledore knew Peter was a spy, another pertinent question was raised: Did Snape know? I've had a tendency to blow this question off in the past (which I'll explain), but I'd like to go into it now.

'You haven't been hiding from me for twelve years,' said Black. 'You've been hiding from Voldemort's old supporters. I heard things in Azkaban, Peter ... they all think you're dead, or you'd have to answer to them ... I've heard them screaming all sorts of things in their sleep. Sounds like they think the double-crosser double-crossed them. Voldemort went to the Potters' on your information ... and Voldemort met his downfall there. And not all Voldemort's supporters ended up in Azkaban, did they? There are still plenty out here, biding their time, pretending they've seen the error of their ways ... If they ever got wind that you were still alive, Peter --'
(PoA 270 UK paperback)

This passage appears to present a problem. If the Death Eaters knew Peter was a spy, then wouldn't Snape also know? Why didn't he tell Dumbledore? This has often been presented as evidence that Snape is a triple agent. Actually, though, there are quite a few ways out of it.

First off, must we take what Sirius says at face value? Were the DEs in Azkaban actually screaming about Peter, by name, or did Sirius simply assume they knew who the traitor had been? It's also not bad to remember that Sirius, though he may be relatively sane, is nonetheless somewhat unhinged at this point.

But let's say the Azkaban DEs did name Peter. Just because a few DEs knew who the traitor was, does that mean they all knew? It seems unwise to allow such a thing to be common knowledge among the DEs, of which we know there were many, but I can believe that Voldemort confided in those closest to him (say, the Lestranges, who were in Azkaban at the same time as Sirius). However, there's some evidence that Snape was not especially close to V.

Some months back, theatresm did a great post on Snape's role as a spy and a DE, with some wonderful close-reading of GoF, including this:

This now becomes a very interesting scene [GoF 647 US], in terms of what it tells us (implicitly) about the Death Eaters. They are "forming a silent circle.... Yet they left gaps in the circle, as if waiting for more people." [...] Pettigrew [...] steps into the circle to Voldemort's right.

Here's where we get into some conjecture about the Death Eater hierarchy. Voldemort has been behaving in a very formal, ritualistic manner, and he turns to his right. "At the right hand" is traditionally a place of honor [...] Furthermore, formal etiquette demands that the highest-ranking person is acknowledged first -- and the first person Voldemort addresses after dealing with Wormtail is Lucius Malfoy, who stands to Wormtail's right [GoF 650 US].

theatresm goes on to point out that the gap of six missing DEs, of which Snape is assumed to be one, is way down at the low end, so the suggestion is that these are low-ranked folks. If Snape is/was low in rank, that could be advantageous for his double-crossing career -- with V, it's not a bad idea to keep a low profile. It would also explain why he may not have been privy to sensitive information, such as the identities of the other DE spies.

But still, let's go even further. Let's say Snape did find out that Peter was a DE. As we've discovered, there are several possible scenarios where Dumbledore already knew that. Or approaching it from the other direction, we could add Snape to some of those theories -- postulating that Snape told Dumbledore what was going on, and Dumbledore did nothing because he was trying to allow the prophecy to be fulfilled, for example.

In short, I don't think you have to suspend your disbelief to operate on the premise that Snape is on Dumbledore's side. It works.

And it's a good thing, too, because I think the probability of Snape being revealed as a triple agent in canon is precisely zip. The purpose of Snape's character in the narrative appears to be to teach Harry that not all assholes are Death Eaters -- this has been the case from book one. Turning around and saying, well, I guess he was evil after all... would make his existence in the series essentially purposeless. This is why I've tended to be dismissive of the possibility when it's been raised in the past.

On the other hand, I'd say it's perfectly legitimate to use Evil!Snape in fic -- at least as legitimate as writing anything else that seems extraordinarily unlikely to be true in canon. It just really isn't the only possible solution.

Disagree? Tell me about it! If there are different readings of Snape's narrative role that I haven't considered, I would love to hear them.

Comments

[vvvexation.livejournal.com]

Another thing to remember: Igor Karkaroff specifically said at his trial, "We never knew the names of every one of our fellows--[Voldemort] alone knew exactly who we all were." Though granted, the fact that Voldemort goes around the circle naming names even when everybody's masked doesn't quite square with that.

[gmth.livejournal.com]

He doesn't name everyone, though. There are some DEs he addresses, and others he passes by. Personally, I think Snape was one of the DEs present that night and one of the ones Voldemort didn't name, but that's getting off topic here. :-)

[eponis.livejournal.com]

Though granted, the fact that Voldemort goes around the circle naming names even when everybody's masked doesn't quite square with that.

Well, since many of them speak aloud anyway, secrecy would be difficult to impose. (Snape, for example, would likely have recognized Pettigrew's voice had he been present in a meeting.) The members who aren't present, however, are not named when they're alluded to. Presumably, then, there's a core group of trusted supporters that know each other, but Voldemort doesn't tell all of them about other spies or contacts that he may have elsewhere.

[pauraque]

Forgetful me for not including that! Thanks.

[dailyplanet.livejournal.com]

It's possible that Snape did know and kept it to himself, but that he's NOT a triple agent. Maybe he is loyal to Dumbledore but liked the idea of revenge on Black. He really really really hates Sirius Black, after all. And he's let his feelings come before his duty to Dumbledore before, like when he quit the Occulmency lesson thingies because he was mad at Harry.

I think Snape getting wind of this "Peter" thing during or after the fact and then just tucking that information away --- after all, what would change, the Potters are already dead --- would be consistent with his character. I can't see him being motivated to rescue people he hates if Dumbledore wasn't asking him to do it. LOL!!! I kind of like that plot outcome cos it's extra twisted.

[chresimos.livejournal.com]

And Lupin does have that comment in PoA, Is a schoolboy grudge worth putting an innocent man back in Azkaban, which could imply he'd worked it out, if he knew Snape was once a DE, though it's a bit of a stretch...

[eponis.livejournal.com]

You have a good point about Snape letting his emotional outbursts overcome his duty, but, as you say, Sirius is the person he loathes most - not James. In fact, I'm pretty sure it says outright (though I can't remember where at the moment) that Snape saves Harry's life on multiple occasions because of the life-debt he had to James for saving his life during the Prank.

Now, I suppose that you could say that the younger Snape was less duty-bound, and that his guilt over not honoring his debt the first time was what made him so bound to help Harry. (This would, actually, be something of a parallel to Peter: Peter leads Harry to an intended death at Voldemort's hands, despite owing him a life-debt, but I have a feeling that the life-debt will return at some point in the future.) I'm inclined to say, though, that Snape doesn't despise James (or particularly Lily) to the extent that he'd willfully let them be killed, even if he didn't feel the debt pressing on him.

You have a good point, though, that if Snape did know, there's no reason that he'd tell anyone else. There's potential for lots of darkfic, actually, in the gap between what Snape does as a DE (perhaps for his own purposes) and what he tells Dumbledore.

[cruisedirector]

Since we see Snape in canon only through the POV of a child who despises him, and who continues to assume the worst of him and his motives despite receiving evidence that he may be attributing malevolence to actions which he doesn't really have enough information to understand, I think it's really hard to separate out what's intrinsically Snape from what's Snape-as-Harry-perceives-him.

And I think, as he's been written so far, that Rowling has balanced it so that he COULD be a double or triple agent, and I would believe it if it were done right. Sometimes I'm sure that he has a broad redemptive arc, that he is wholly good and is probably going to die saving Harry or Neville, and we're going to learn that he really did cut all ties with the Death Eaters except those that Dumbledore asked him to maintain; other times I am positive that he is still working for them, consciously or unconsciously, since if Voldemort is certain that he can bring Snape in line with a single command or curse, it would go a long way toward explaining why Snape is alive and operating independently after leaving the DEs, when so many Order members are dead -- even those who did not have a son prophecied to bring down the Dark Lord.

A lot of CoS and OOTP has focused on the role of will -- you CHOOSE your alliances. Now, Draco, who is completely his father's son, would seem to me to contradict that somewhat, but Snape is someone who has more than once made a choice and reversed it. I really think he could choose to side with the DEs for all the wrong reasons, not because he's evil but because banal things like hating someone who was mean to you in youth sometimes drive people to do really stupid things. Or he could choose the noble path and save Harry's life without ever giving Harry a single reason to like him otherwise.

[pauraque]

I really think he could choose to side with the DEs for all the wrong reasons, not because he's evil but because banal things like hating someone who was mean to you in youth sometimes drive people to do really stupid things.

Hm. This is the best argument I've heard for Snape siding with Voldemort. I think the "making choices and reversing them" point is what makes it seem more likely to me than Snape simply having been a loyal DE all along. Snape as a flip-flopper... interesting. The negative corrolary of free will, which is certainly presented as a virtue in the series. As nakedcelt pointed out below, JKR does consistently demonstrate that virtues have complementary vices.

[arclevel.livejournal.com]

Another possibility is that Snape heard the spy referred to as Wormtail, and knew that he knew the name but couldn't remember where. Maybe he even knew it was one of those @&*^#*^ Gryffindors, but didn't know which one and didn't want to pass on incomplete information, or didn't think Dumbledore would believe his accusation of "one of them." Or he did pass on the general info but not how he knew; I've always found it a little odd that Sirius would have suspected Remus, just because of the implication that it had to be one of their little gang, so it must be Remus. (Though that may not have been his thought process at all.) Additionally, Azkaban seems to be close quarters; if only one or two of them knew the spy was "Wormtail," they'd soon likely all know.

I'm in complete agreement on Why Snape is Not Still Evil. There are lots of aspects of character analysis in which I'll ignore authorial intent or the fact that this is a book -- for instance, "he did it because JKR says he's eee-vill," or "well, the plot needed for that to happen, so it doesn't really reflect on his character." On the other hand, a lot of interpretations of characters, usually making them Death Eaters, make the actual characters so much *less* than what they are. Snape as genuinely evil, Fudge or Umbridge as Death Eaters, Percy as either Death Eater or spy. On the other hand, I can completely buy a Snape who is still hanging on to some of his Death Eater loyalties, is emotionally conflicted, or attempting to play both sides against the middle. When push comes to shove, though, he's a good guy.

[gaeta.livejournal.com]

Another possibility is that Snape heard the spy referred to as Wormtail, and knew that he knew the name but couldn't remember where. Maybe he even knew it was one of those @&*^#*^ Gryffindors, but didn't know which one ...

Very good. This would certainly explain why the marauders appeared to know that one of their group was a spy, but not which one. Going from there to suspecting Remus, however, remains a problem for me. I suppose Peter might have worked hard to create that impression although there's no textual evidence that I know of to suggest he did.

I am hopeful that Snape's early DE career and more details surrounding the betrayal of James and Lily will appear somewhere in book 6 or 7.

[musesfool.livejournal.com]

Another possibility is that Snape heard the spy referred to as Wormtail, and knew that he knew the name but couldn't remember where. Maybe he even knew it was one of those @&*^#*^ Gryffindors, but didn't know which one and didn't want to pass on incomplete information, or didn't think Dumbledore would believe his accusation of "one of them." Or he did pass on the general info but not how he knew;

I find this most plausible. I dislike Snape a lot but can't conceive of him allowing even Sirius Black to rot in Azkaban for 12 years if he knew he wasn't the traitor. Otoh, if he could do that, I can't imagine him keeping up the charade with Dumbledore once Sirius has escaped, to the point of wanting to send him *back*, and Lupin with him.

Snape genuinely seems to think Sirius is out to kill Harry in PoA, even from Harry's noticably biased POV.

I've always found it a little odd that Sirius would have suspected Remus, just because of the implication that it had to be one of their little gang, so it must be Remus.

Oh, I think Peter helped that along a lot, and if Remus was doing secretive things for the Order, perhaps even helping with the er, debriefing of Snape or something to do with Regulus (who we also know tried to get out), well, Sirius knows better than anyone how good Remus is at keeping secrets. All it takes is a few well-placed words by Peter about seeing Remus somewhere suspicious, or in the company of someone suspicious, when Remus said he was somewhere else, or as favored by fanfic writers everywhere, Peter passing on the rumor that Voldemort was offering some prototype of Wolfsbane potion to werewolves (which would give Snape and Remus a reason to actually have met and been spotted and well... now we spin off into airy speculation) to get Sirius to think along those lines, and think he thought of it himself. Young Sirius is quite impressed with his own cleverness, I think.

Now, Sirius knows he's not the spy himself. He knows it's not James or Lily. He discounts Peter completely as incapable of sustaining a long-term, large-scale deception (never realizing of course, the Peter had alreayd done so for six years in colluding with MPP to hide Remus's secret, the animagus transformation, etc.). If information indicated that it was one of MWPP, instead of someone in the order at large (we have no canon evidence one way or the other on that), no one else is left for Sirius to suspect, and all Sirius has to do is convince James and Lily that switching is the brilliant plan he says it is, without even having to convince them of Remus's guilt. He never spins it that he switched because he was suspicious of Remus - that's a fannish invention - Remus guesses he wasn't *informed* of the switch because Sirius suspected him. There's a difference.

Sirius spins the switch as the perfect decoy, he's outsmarting the spy and Voldemort at once. Had Peter not been the spy, it probably would have worked brilliantly. Sirius always was too clever by half, if you listen to other people's descriptions of him. He outsmarted himself on this one.

Azkaban seems to be close quarters; if only one or two of them knew the spy was "Wormtail," they'd soon likely all know.

Oh, I like to think Bellatrix taunted Sirius with it daily. *g*

[pauraque]

or didn't think Dumbledore would believe his accusation of "one of them."

This is an intriguingly angsty idea. Snape as... the boy who cried wolf, as it were.

On the other hand, a lot of interpretations of characters, usually making them Death Eaters, make the actual characters so much *less* than what they are.

I quite agree.

[chresimos.livejournal.com]

did Sirius simply assume they knew who the traitor had been?

Hang on. Sirius' "trial" or arbitrary imprisonment or whatever it was would have been at the same time as, or shortly before, the sentencing of the DEs who went to Azkaban. Even if it were shortly after, would the prisoners have been so out of it as to not hear the news? If they didn't know who was the traitor, they would then assume that Sirius was. Were they screeching their cries of vengeance at him?

I don't know, the passage you quoted always sounded to me like they knew the traitor was Peter, although you can read it differently. they all think you're dead, or you'd have to answer to them - could mean that if they found Peter alive, they'd realize he was the spy and go after him, instead of assuming the spy was Sirius. Then again, if they thought Sirius was the traitor, then Peter would have nothing to fear if he exposed himself only to DEs who knew him as an average run-of-the-mill DE. Implying that *some* DEs would have known Peter was the traitor. Of course this sounds really stupid now, because someone all friendly with the Potters would obviously seem a spy, and I'm talking in circles. *gives up* *tears hair*

1. Only Voldemort knew Peter was the traitor.
2. Only high-ranking DEs knew Peter was the traitor. These, in turn, are the DEs in Azkaban (mostly).
3. Plenty of DEs knew Peter was the traitor, just not Snape. Because:
3a. The DEs work in cell-type units and don't know the other DEs.
3b. Snape was not important enough to know stuff.
3c. Snape only worked with Voldemort and not with other DEs [so unlikely].
4. Everybody knew Peter was the traitor. Snape is sneaky. Also unlikely, imo - he seems too genuine about capturing Sirius.

*muddles*

WAIT. What about this - Peter joined the DEs after Snape defected? *smacks self on forehead* Does that work?

[idlerat.livejournal.com]

That's kind of what I think. I think Snape already fulfilled his life debt to James by going to DD when he heard DD was after James (and/or because of Lily). This may not have been his only reason, but we know that some inside source told DD that LV was after them, and since this is mentioned, I think it has to have been Snape. But this could, at the least, be before Peter was revealed to the other DEs.

[eponis.livejournal.com]

if they found Peter alive, they'd realize he was the spy and go after him

That was actually what I always believed. That the DEs in Azkaban included some high-ranking DEs who knew it was Peter, so they spread the knowledge between themselves, but (because DEs Are Evil) they liked keeping an innocent Sirius in prison; meanwhile, Peter couldn't contact DEs who stayed out of prison, because they'd immediately realize that he'd been the spy.

What about this - Peter joined the DEs after Snape defected? *smacks self on forehead* Does that work?

Snape's trial, IIRC, was after the fall of Voldemort; only at that point was Snape revealed as a spy. So, no, the dates don't work, I think. (Also, even when Snape was "revealed" as a spy, it was in a closed meeting with Dumbledore as his only proof. Clearly others still believed him to be fishy afterwards, and Voldemort was clearly willing to take him back, so it seems unlikely that Voldemort had at any point believed him to be a real spy.)

(Though is is possible that Snape and Voldemort had a falling-out: not an actual betrayal, but some kind of point of disagreement, which made Snape less trustworthy to V and encouraged Snape to go to Dumbledore. One theory of mine is that the falling-out focused around Occlumency/Legilimency: Snape wanted to learn it; Voldemort wouldn't teach him it, but Dumbledore would.)

[chresimos.livejournal.com]

Hmm..only if Snape left the DEs completely. Which I guess is possible if he is the "one who has left forever" in GoF, but wouldn't have made him a very useful spy. Or if the Dark Lord knew he was a spy, and started cutting him out of useful info, which does seem a bit too sensible a course of action for Lord "Let's AK a one-year-old child" Voldemort.

Or...Wormtail as a code name...but Snape seems to recognize the nicknames in PoA on the map (one wonders why he gave Lupin the change to speak, instead of just destroying the thing). And if only Snape had actually *looked* at the map before running to the shack, he would have seen Peter was alive, like Lupin did.

Gah, this takes a more logical mind than mine. Have random PoA quote: too arrogant to believe you might be mistaken in Black. Did Snape try to warn the Potters?

option 1b:

[valentinite.livejournal.com]

There's another option I see:
1b) Only Voldemort knew it was Peter before. The DEs in Azkaban know because Sirius told them, whether or not he told them directly or by talking in his sleep, or whatever. Any DEs that rally around Voldemort during the whole resurrection-plot of GoF know because Peter is there.

This dovetails nicely with assuming a parallel structure for Snape and Peter: Snape started out a DE, Peter in the Order. Only Dumbledore knew about Snape, and only Voldemort knew about Peter. By the point of the DE breakout in OotP, everyone on both sides knows who both spies were. Snape, though, still has his connection to Radio Voldemort via the dark mark, while Peter doesn't have anything like that connecting him to Dumbledore, to the best of Harry's and the reader's knowledge. But I think they'll both be redemption-figures -- I think Peter will eventually "take a bullet" for Harry when push comes to shove. I don't have a clear idea what precisely will happen to Snape -- I don't think he'll die, actually.

[fernwithy.livejournal.com]

On the other hand, I'd say it's perfectly legitimate to use Evil!Snape in fic -- at least as legitimate as writing anything else that seems extraordinarily unlikely to be true in canon. It just really isn't the only possible solution.

Well, you can certainly go with Evil!Snape during the time he was a DE--I don't like the tendency to soft pedal what he might have done during that era.

However, I tend to go with dailyplanet's notion that we're dealing with Snape's grudge. He may not have deliberately chosen to let the Potters die, and he certainly wouldn't have known about the Fidelius charm ahead of time, let alone Sirius's plan to switch secret-keepers. But would he let the loathed Sirius take the rap even though he knows a different member of the group was a DE and more likely to have been the traitor? Oh, yeah. I don't even think he'd get indigestion from swallowing that. He might superficially convince himself that Black could also have been a traitor (in fact, I could see him believing that all of them were likely to have been complete hypocrites--after all, to Snape's mind, only he himself is virtuous, while everyone he hates is craven), but upon learning that it wasn't true, I honestly don't think he'd have been terribly fussed about Sirius's fate.

[dailyplanet.livejournal.com]

I definitely agree. I think that, without a "life debt" hanging over him, or Dumbledore knowing he has that secret, or an Order of Merlin in the wings.... For Snape to voluntarily give up the information that Black is innocent would be a selfless act he's just not capable of according to what we've seen of him in the books.

What would he get from that? Nothing really. It would be messy because he'd have to explain over and over how he knew about it, being a Death Eater and bringing up all that business. Black gets out of prison triumphantly and is a wrongfully accused hero and now courageous single father pitied by the Wizarding World for losing his best friends ... LOL I can see Snape totally hating the whole scenario.

[webbapettigrew.livejournal.com]

Snape doesn't know about Peter.

This is going to be a very simplistic statement I'm about to pose, given how eloquent everyone else's been, but I'll use it anyhow:

Expelliamus is supposed to be a disarming spell, not a spell to render someone unconscious. Despite that, when Snape gets hit by this spell in PoA, he is knocked out. He never sees Peter, and doesn't regain consciousness until after Peter's long gone.

When you think about it, Snape's loss of consciousness is interesting. He should have just lost his wand, and have been forced to watch the entire rebirth of Peter, as it were.

But he doesn't see.

My belief is that JKR didn't want him to see. Snape's not supposed to know that Peter's alive. Ergo, I believe that Snape never knew that Peter was a Death Eater.

Given that Dumbledore hasn't one in canon mentioned to Snape that Harry saved Pettigrew's life, I would assume that Dumbledore doesn't want Snape knowing. The more people who know Pettigrew is alive, the worse things could be for him. Even at Grimmauld Place, while Peter is discussed briefly, Snape is not in on the conversation. Which leads me to believe that very few people, even in the Order, are aware that he's still alive. Could it be possible that Dumbledore, Sirius, Remus and the trio are the only ones who know for sure?

That might not be the case, but when Moody shows Harry the picture of his family with the Order, he doesn't say a bloody thing when Wormtail's body comes into view. Pretty interesting, if you think about it. He talks about everyone else...you'd think someone who preaches "constant vigilence" would have said something.

Whether or not Snape is truly loyal remains to be seen, but I don't think that he knows Peter exists. I also think Peter's a double agent and has been all along, but that's another argument for another day...

[gaeta.livejournal.com]

Certainly by the end of GoF everyone who heard Harry's story knows Peter is alive. I'm guessing Snape might have known even before then, or he surely wouldn't so readily have accepted (readily being a relative term) Sirius's innocence when Dumbledore has them shake hands.

[nakedcelt.livejournal.com]

I think it's important to remember we still don't know everything about Snape's past. We don't know why Dumbledore trusts him; we can't put it down to inconsistencies in Dumbledore's character, because Rowling has explicitly "teased" us in both GoF and OotP about this. ("That, Harry, is a matter between Professor Snape and myself.") We don't know what prompted him to turn spy for the Order. We don't even know, strictly speaking, that his current task is spying again, like the first time; all we're told is that "finding out what the Dark Lord is saying to his Death Eaters" is Snape's job.

We can draw some tentative conclusions from Rowling's general moral philosophy, though, combined with what we know of Snape's past. In Rowling's works, as a general rule, vice is virtue misapplied (think of Hagrid's kindness — to monsters — or Harry's independence — in OotP). Therefore, Snape's vice, viz., his clinging to grudges despite their manifest foolishness, must reflect his virtue: presumably, clinging to loyalties and duties despite their manifest foolishness. And, in fact, you can see that virtue in his devotion to Harry's safety in PS/SS: he hates it, he'd probably be much happier if he could just ignore his debt to James and turn a blind eye to Quirrell, but if he ignored past debts and grudges he wouldn't be Snape. Now consider the provocation he's had from Dumbledore, particularly in PoA... yet he supports and obeys Dumbledore at all times. The only thing that even resembles a hint of disloyalty is his "indulgent smile" when Draco suggests (CoS) that Snape become Headmaster in Dumbledore's place, and this is immediately followed by a gentle admonition ("Now, now, I'm sure the Headmaster will be with us again soon" or words to that effect). Clearly, Dumbledore has done him a great service which he will never forget, and also one which does not leave a nasty taste in his mouth, unlike his life-debt to James.

I'm tempted also to speculate on his relationship with Lucius Malfoy in his school days. Sirius calls him Lucius' "lap-dog", for one thing; but now, consider his urbane, sneering manner as an adult, in contrast with his seething rage as a teenager in the Pensieve. Could it be that Malfoy (who I somehow picture as being a year or two older) taught him how to conquer his enemies by assuming an air of cold superiority? Note also his fondness for Draco. I can't see this as something put on in order to gain the Death Eaters' trust; if there is one social skill Snape has never developed it is feigning fondness, and besides, it is evident in PS/SS, long before Voldemort's return and the revival of the Death Eaters and the Order.

None of which brings me to any definite conclusions about his awareness or otherwise of Pettigrew's position, but it does mean I'm inclined to watch and see what we find out next, rather than trying to nut it all out from what little we've got so far. The one thing we do know for sure is that there's still a big piece missing.

[pauraque]

Malfoy (who I somehow picture as being a year or two older)

Our best evidence is that Lucius is about six or seven years older than Snape.

' "I feel much easier in my mind now that I know Dumbledore is being subjected to fair and objective evaluation," said Mr Lucius Malfoy, 41, speaking from his Wiltshire mansion last night.
(OotP Ch.15)

And JKR has said in an interview that Snape was about 30 at the time of PS/SS (sorry, I haven't got the reference handy). So he's 34 or 35 when Lucius is 41.

Of course, things like this can easily be fudged to suit a fan writer's purposes, and frequently are. Your view of the nature of the Snape-Lucius relationship is a popular one.

The one thing we do know for sure is that there's still a big piece missing.

Yes, I fully expect you're right.

[kaysha.livejournal.com]

Ack. I disagree with your opinion on Snape's role in the HP books, but I already said so in one of my DD-PP posts. :)

Anyway, thanks for the link to theatresm's post.. I found something interesting in the comments: ptyx quoted a HPfGU post in which someone talked about a Q&A session with JKR after a reading of hers in Vancouver. This person said that JKR sort of answered the question who the 3 missing Death Eaters in GoF are.

I'm wondering now.. Do we have confirmation that she really, really, really did? I mean, if she did, wouldn't it be more 'common knowledge' in fandom? To me it seems the answer to that question is still somewhat unclear to many people, that's why I'd really like to know if there's anyone out there, someone other than the person who originally posted that message on HPfGU, who heard her reveal the 3 DE's..

(Yeah, I really NEED to know! Damn, is there a way to send in questions for the poll on JKR's homepage? ;))

[pauraque]

I disagree with your opinion on Snape's role in the HP books, but I already said so in one of my DD-PP posts. :)

I remembered that you'd said that, but I couldn't see where you'd explained it... I was sort of hoping you'd turn up and explain it here. :) What *do* you believe Snape's role to be? What purpose does it serve in the narrative for Harry to basically have been right about him from the beginning? What does Harry learn?

I'd really like to know what you think! I'm not a "my way or the highway" type of analyst... it's fun for me to hear other views.

As for what ptyx said, I'm afraid I'm at a loss. The Leaky Cauldron has a function to search JKR's interviews, but a cursory check didn't reveal anything on the subject.

[ani-bester.livejournal.com]

^^ You took the discussion topic I've been working on for three weeks *cry*

My thoughts were it's most likely that Snape did not know because I think if Snape was highly palced enough to know Peter was the spy, he'd have to be very highly placed indeed, and therefore, I think the Order wouldn't have been as hard up as it was because Snape would be privy to much more information.

Also I simply don't see Voldemort putting the kind of trust in Snape that one often sees in fanfics.

The one way that it occurred to me that Snape might have known about Peter is if it was put forth as some kind of Loyalty test. If Voldemort purposefully let Peter's identity slip to Snape to see if the order would find out about Peter or not. Then Voldemort would know his spy. That would allow Snape to know about Peter, without being able to tell Dumbledore any more than there is a spy close to the Potters, unless Snape wanted to compromise himself.

What happens there though, is one then has to question how Snape relates to Black. He would know about Peter, yest in PoA, he seemed convinced it was Black who should be in Azkaban.

My thoughts on that is, even if you know Peter is a spy, circumstances make it appear that Sirus betrayed the Potters. Snape would most likely assume two of Potter's friends suck, as opposed to one. Snape already feels Black is cabable of murder, and possibly betrayal, considering the implications for Remus, a supposed friend of Black's, had Snape died. He might have seen it as completely in Black's nature to give the Potters up.

Also, whether Black killed the Potters might have been a mote point to Snape. Snape might ahve felt Black deserved Azkaban for and the reason he was there didn't matter. That depends though, on how closely one things Snape could hold to a petty grudge.

Anyway, Since it did looks as though Black had sold out the Potters, Snape might have seen Black's insistance that it was Peter as an easy way to shift the blame onto someone else. It could seem like the perfect bluff. Black could prove Peter a spy then explain his "Switch" and Peter, who was less liked than Black, would take the fall, and Black gets away with murder.

So that's how Snape could know Peter was a spy and yet still; think Black was one as well.

Anyway, if you can follow that yaya.

Oh and,mI don't think Peter's name was common knowledge in Azkaban, but who I did think might have known of him and be cursing his name is Bellatrix.

-Ani

[pauraque]

You took the discussion topic I've been working on for three weeks *cry*

Sorry! I had no idea.

Snape would most likely assume two of Potter's friends suck, as opposed to one.

Yeah, this is something people often forget. Peter's guilt does *not* imply Sirius's innocence!

[wolfie-thu.livejournal.com]

because I think the probability of Snape being revealed as a triple agent in canon is precisely zip.

Agreed. What really cemented this for me was the end of OotP, where Harry eases his own guilt by placing the blame for Sirius' death on Snape, and swearing that he'll never forgive him. While Snape has been an ass towards Harry a lot of the time, he wasn't in the wrong in this situation- and Harry knows this, he just doesn't want to admit it. To have it turn out that Snape really has been a DE all along, would seem like validating Harry's shifting of the blame, and allow him to get away with not taking responsibility for his actions.

[pauraque]

Yes, precisely. I couldn't have put it better.

[arclevel.livejournal.com]

As I was musing on this rather -- er, while I was working this afternoon, I had a brilliant thought. Then, of course, I had several more thoughts which explained why the brilliant thought was clearly wrong. However, I think it's still relevant.

The theories showing up here are about what Snape knew when and who he told; some suggest that he knew Peter/Wormtail was the spy but didn't tell. A couple people suggest that he might have known after the Potters were dead, so too late to save them, but didn't bother to tell because saving Black wasn't worth it and his grudge took over. But that reminded me of something. Sirius Black was not in Azkaban for being a spy. He was not in Azkaban for being a Death Eater; he was not even in Azkaban for betraying the Potters to their deaths.

Sirius Black was in Azkaban for the murders of thirteen people -- twelve Muggles and Peter Pettigrew. Everyone thought Peter dead, including the DEs cursing him in Azkaban. No one ever questioned that Sirius did it. More over, IIRC, Sirius went to Peter to "confront" him that day -- he probably intended to kill him. If Snape knew Peter was the spy, that wouldn't have changed the "fact" that Sirius had murdered all those people. In fact, Sirius would have had much more motive to murder Peter if *Peter* was the spy than if Sirius was.

That still brings up the question that Dumbledore still thought Sirius the spy, as of whatever hearing Sirius got, but perhaps the topic simply hadn't come up between the two (at least before that), or Snape just couldn't see how it mattered given that Black had murdered all those people. Also, this would allow Snape to know Peter was a/the spy but still believe Black belonged in Azkaban or deserved the Kiss as of PoA.

The main problem with it really comes down to the line that James was "too arrogant to believe he might be wrong about Black." This strongly implies that, as of PoA, Snape believed Sirius betrayed the Potters to their deaths. I also think that Snape has personal issues deeply tied into the idea that Sirius betrayed James, but that's its own ramble.

[pauraque]

You're quite right. Someone killed those Muggles, and there was no evidence that it wasn't Sirius, Death Eater or no.