PoA 17

[pauraque_bk]

EDIT: Almost forgot to mention-- Chloe is going to be fine. There'll still be an investigation, but healthwise, things are good. Thanks to everyone for the good thoughts.

*

In Chapter 16, secretcodename suggests that the Second Prophecy doesn't refer to Peter. This isn't a theory I've heard before, so you may want to have a look.


PoA 17: Cat, Rat and Dog

*rubs hands together* Okay, here we go. The juicy stuff.

As was discussed in Chapter 1, PoA's climactic sequence is much more emotional than physical, and in that sense it's very unlike the other four books. How satisfying it is depends a great deal on whether the reader is invested in the emotional and psychological struggle of the four adults, which, as a first-time reader, I was.

Of course, Harry also has an inner struggle, centering on whether he's capable of taking a life -- a thread that picks up again in OotP with the Harry-Bellatrix scene, not to mention the First Prophecy. Harry takes a bit of a back seat at this point in PoA -- for the first time, something isn't about him, and we start to get a larger sense of the forces at work around him, set in motion long before he was born.

I've said a lot about these few chapters in various contexts, so I'll try not to repeat myself too much. But if you want to bring up something I didn't go into, feel free.

Crookshanks darted forwards. He slithered bewteen the battering branches like a snake and placed his front paws upon a knot on the trunk. (246)

'I thought you'd come and help your friend,' [Black] said hoarsely. [...] 'Your father would have done the same for me. Brave of you, not to run for a teacher. I'm grateful ... it will make everything much easier...' (249)

Sirius could have told Crookshanks not to let them in, and he could have killed Peter as soon as he got into the Shack. He didn't do either of these things, so it looks like he didn't want to kill Peter without Harry there to see it. Then again, he only starts to explain when Harry has him at wandpoint (250). Throughout the scene, he wavers between homicidal rage and a need for Harry to understand what he's doing. As others have pointed out, a great deal of what Sirius feels has to do with James. I wonder if part of him feels that Harry's forgiveness=James's forgiveness. That's the only thing I can imagine could override his need to see Peter dead.

All they could see now was one of Ron's legs, which he had hooked around a root in an effort to stop the dog pulling him further underground. Then a horrible crack cut the air like a gunshot; Ron's leg had broken, and next second, his foot had vanished from sight. (246)

'If you want to kill Harry, you'll have to kill us, too!' [Ron] said fiercely[...]
Something flickered in Black's shadowed eyes.
'Lie down,' he said quietly to Ron. 'You will damage that leg even more.' (249)

At first Sirius couldn't care less about injuring Ron as he drags him off like "a rag-doll" (246), merely using him as bait to lure Harry into the Shack. But something changes when Ron declares his willingness to die for Harry... Sirius suddenly sees Ron as himself, willing to sacrifice himself for James.

On a magnificent four-poster bed[...] (248)

I'm imagining young Remus was tied up there... perhaps the reason Sirius picked that room.

'Going to kill me, Harry?' he whispered. [...]
'You killed my parents,' said Harry[...]
'I don't deny it,' he said, very quietly. (250)

As chresimos and I discussed not too long ago, if Sirius was saying this sort of thing when he was arrested, there's no need to accuse the Ministry of railroading him, as fans frequently do. He may well have confessed.

He was going to kill Black. He had to kill Black. This was his chance. [...]
Harry gripped his wand convulsively -- Do it now! said a voice in his head -- (251)

Some see this "voice in his head" as literally being Voldemort, or some remnant of Voldemort left over from the failed Killing Curse. In any case, it's certainly an important moment for Harry -- as in OotP (and as in Chapter 19), he cannot commit himself to killing another human being, even though he has an urge to do so.

Crookshanks leapt onto Black's chest, and settled himself there, right over Black's heart. Black blinked and looked down at the cat.
'Get off,' he murmured, trying to push Crookshanks off him. [Crookshanks] turned his ugly, squashed face to Harry, and looked up at him with those great yellow eyes. To his right, Hermione gave a dry sob.
[...]So what if he had to kill the cat, too? It was in league with Black ... if it was prepared to die, trying to protect Black, that wasn't Harry's business ... (251)

He also decides he can accept killing Crookshanks as collateral damage, though he is aware of Hermione's anguish at the prospect. The situation parallels Harry's decision here with Peter's -- Peter also had to decide to kill bystanders and devastate families. It's important to the flow of the sequence that while Harry can't commit to killing, he also can't decide not to -- that decision is left for later, when he actively saves Peter's life.

Sirius's reaction is fascinatingly understated. Is he thinking of Crookshanks's safety? Or is this the part of him talking that thinks he deserves to die, and doesn't want Harry to hesitate?

Then Lupin spoke, in an odd voice, a voice that shook with some suppressed emotion. 'Where is he, Sirius?' (252)

There was a ringing silence. Everyone's eyes were now on Lupin, who looked remarkably calm, though rather pale.
'Not at all up to your usual standard, Hermione,' he said. (253)

Remus's emotions become more and more deeply buried throughout the Shack sequence, starting at the panic that sends him dashing off across the grounds without his medication, and eventually sinking to his icy "Goodbye, Peter" (275).

'But then...' Lupin muttered, staring at Black so intently it seemed he was trying to read his mind, '...why hasn't he shown himself before now? Unless--' Lupin's eyes suddenly widened, as though he was seeing something beyond Black, something none of the rest could see, '-- unless he was the one...unless you switched...without telling me?' (252)

Clearly, Remus doesn't get that Sirius is innocent until this moment.

'[...]as he pulled two of you into the Whomping Willow --'
'One of us!' Ron said angrily. (255)

Interesting that Ron is angry at this point. He doesn't know to be defensive yet, unless it's just general pain and upset, or unless he's already figured out that Scabbers is somehow involved.


Past re-read posts are here.


ETA: "All By Myself" and "Don't Cry Out Loud" are basically the same song. I'm just sayin'.

Comments

[caesia390.livejournal.com]

I'm imagining young Remus was tied up there... perhaps the reason Sirius picked that room.

...i am blanking at anything other than an incredibly kinky interpretation of this statement. >:} intentional?

as in OotP (and as in Chapter 19), he cannot commit himself to killing another human being, even though he has an urge to do so.

i do wonder what it would take to get harry up to killing speed. ...perhaps he'll have to be in the very middle of a bloodbath. see it and hear it and feel it... hmmmmmm...

[pauraque]

Young Remus was chained up in the Shack during his transformations. You big silly.

[caesia390.livejournal.com]

....chained up???

but he transformed into a wolf; chains wouldn't work

.................youngthinunderagesicklychainedupwhimperingremus... you're just trying to turn me into MORE of a sadist, aren't you? >:D

and why would sirius care about chaining people up if he's going to kill pettigrew..?

admit it - that doesn't make any sense outside a sexual context. >:D

[pauraque]

*scratches head* I thought the tying up was canon, but now I can't find it. It seems a bit stupid NOT to secure him, though.

And I wasn't suggesting Sirius was going to tie anyone up, I'm saying he had no logical reason to drag Ron all the way up the stairs into the bedroom. I was attempting an emotional/psychological explanation.

[caesia390.livejournal.com]

uhhhhhhhhhh huh.

tied spread-eagled to a four-poster bed!!!!!!!!! >:DDDDDDDDDDDDD

well, i mean, it seems like the werewolf would be able to break free of *physical* restraints, and isn't the shack described as being quite derelict and trashed and whatnot - say, as if a wolf had been contained there. and even if one could, say, magically hogtie remus, tying a four-legged creature to the posts of a bed just seems incredibly cruel. let it at least curl up on the floor.

TIEDTOABED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! *dies of lust* and remus always struck me as the dominant sort...

I was attempting an emotional/psychological explanation.

four-poster bed. BEDBEDBED.

[/gibberish]

TIEDTOABED!!!

[pauraque]

If he's not tied up, what's stopping him from busting out the doors and windows?

[caesia390.livejournal.com]

magic

perhaps it's something similar to the fidelius charm - he can only be let out, can't let himself out. has more to do with will and permission than physical boundaries. otherwise how would it have been so easy for sirius &al to access him?

You tied a sickly teenage boy in much physical distress to a bed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! you naughty person!!!! :D that has to be the sexiest inadvertent sex reference i have heard in... ever. >:D

[pauraque]

Hee.

Well, having read ahead a bit, I think you may be right, and my understanding may be influenced by fanon. I'll have more to say about it in the next chapter, no doubt.

[aubrem.livejournal.com]

Clearly he wasn't tied up when he almost killed Snape back in the Shrieking Shack "incident."

[pauraque]

Right, but that was long after the other three had figured out how to get Remus out of whatever constraints he was in.

[aubrem.livejournal.com]

Yeah, and it none of it ever made sense to me. I mean, a ravenous werewolf driven to bite human beings - and Prongs, Padfoot and Wormtail just let him out and frolic with him? And no wandering student ever got hurt? Damn serious stuff, esp the Snape incident, and we're supposed to just admire them for their loyalty to their friend?

Sorry, it's a point that bugs me. : )

[pauraque]

It bugs me too, as you'll see when I get there. :)

[caesia390.livejournal.com]

i was gonna save this, but knowing me, i'll forget

while it seems rather counterintuitive that what amounts to a crazed, starving wolf wouldn't attack other animals, from a metaphorical point of view, it makes sense that a werewolf would only lust for humans. it's a magical creature imprisoned in a human body. it breeds by attacking humans. it satisfies its bloodlust by feeding on humans. perhaps it can even be seen as hating its human host and transferring that hatred to all humans. it's the id versus the ego - zoology has little to do with it.

(what studying too hard for exams what are you talking about? psychology?)

[aubrem.livejournal.com]

Oh yes, I don't doubt werewolves are driven to attack humans and possibly aren't interested in other animals. My point is the recklessness of the other marauders in releasing a werewolf. *They* were safe - as animagi - but no one else would have been.

[neotoma.livejournal.com]

*They* were safe - as animagi - but no one else would have been.

They didn't *care*. Really, MWPP were horribly callous -- which is not surprising in teenage boys, but when it continues into their adult state it is rather disturbing. Remus does dismiss their irresponsibility pretty darned fast, after all; Sirius holds that Snape 'deserved it' re: the Prank; Peter shifts all the responsibility for his betrayal of the Potter onto the Dark Lord.

It's really disheartening, and while I can say that Sirius wasn't in his right mind after 12 years in Azkaban, Remus was definitely in *his* right mind. And Remus didn't seem that upset over his past behavior, but instead was more concerned that he would be found out.

[aubrem.livejournal.com]

Oh yes, and his being more concerned with his own position than Harry's safety - in keeping secret the fact that Sirius is an animagus - THAT is reprehensible. I have a lot of sympathy for Snape's point of view. Remus acts nice but when it comes down to it is cowardly and selfish. Snape, though petty and vindictive against children, is courageous and ready to die for the cause (or so JKR hints - I realize we don't really know what all Snape does as a supposed "spy.").

[pauraque]

Remus does dismiss their irresponsibility pretty darned fast, after all; Sirius holds that Snape 'deserved it' re: the Prank; Peter shifts all the responsibility for his betrayal of the Potter onto the Dark Lord.

Ah, good point. Peter uses the same flawed reasoning as Sirius and Remus, yet we're expected to condemn him while forgiving them.

[caesia390.livejournal.com]

oh, right. but why should they care!?!??! talented, arrogant gryffindors on top of the world... nothing bad could happen. it only almost happens! ^_^

ahh ha ha the marauders.......

[pauraque]

er, restraints

[pauraque]

Also -- it was JKR who brought the four-poster bed into it!

[caesia390.livejournal.com]

and here i was thinking it was just another indication of the more vanilla uses of the love shack... >:D silly me.

[muridae-x.livejournal.com]

I think caesia390's suggestion of magic is about all it can be. We know the exterior windows and doors were boarded up, but our werewolf friend seems to have made a fairly good snack out of the furniture in the Shrieking Shack, so in seven years of determined effort you'd expect him to have been able to gnaw his way out past the barriers.

And - jumping ahead a bit - since Remus conjured up various ropes and shackles for the use of their return with the apprehended Peter, there was clearly nothing of that sort to hand in the room with the four poster bed. Shame. Because actually, there is a way you could chain up a person that would still keep them chained when they transformed into werewolf: you put a collar and lead on them, since the neck area doesn't change overmuch. A little undignified true, but better than eating your classmates.

Mind you, this is heading waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back into areas of love shack territory that we probably shouldn't go in to. ;-)

[(Anonymous)]

Changing gears for a moment here...thanks for letting us know that Chloe's all right. :-)

OK, I'm done. Carry on. ;-)

p@,
Glenn

[pauraque]

You're welcome -- it's a pleasure to bear good news. And don't worry about intruding, it's always nice to hear from you, even when I'm engaged in... peculiar debates. *g*

[bardsmaid.livejournal.com]

Glad to know that Chloe's doing well. I was going to write and ask you for an update. Her parents must be very relieved, as I'm sure you are.

[pauraque]

Yes, very.

[dphearson.livejournal.com]

Chloe! The candles works!

And yes on Harry ability to render harm to another- the boy seems to be very pure of heart, so much so that he would not do harm to another. Perhaps doing harm is via spells or just allowing a killing to happen is like touching an unicorn?

Hmmmm.

And tying an innocent, bewildered boy to a 4 poster bed...what are you drinking, sweetie?

[pauraque]

Perhaps the same thing the wizards were drinking when they decided werewolves were second-class citizens who shouldn't be allowed wands or education.

[dphearson.livejournal.com]

*nods*

Making it nice and acceptable for these people to live in dire poverty- possibly driving them to madness and biting yet more people.

*Sigh*

[muridae-x.livejournal.com]

Well it certainly solves the problem about how to eat when you've no money to buy food with. :-)

But yes, a very short-sighted policy - not the Ministry's only one, by any means. Where are the wizarding charities to look after all the people they've disenfranchised? Or do they simply hope that if they make things uncomfortable enough for them, they'll merely *go away* and stop being irritating?

[neotoma.livejournal.com]

Where are the wizarding charities to look after all the people they've disenfranchised?

Apparently, there are any, nor any Wizarding orphanages. The Ministry governs Magic, but offers no social services that can't be gotten from Muggles. Is it that because the society as a whole cannot support magical-only social services, or because they don't care?

Frankly, Wizarding society is in many ways, parasitic on the greater Muggle society. The more aware wizards and witches realize this, but no one admits it.

[dphearson.livejournal.com]

Well it certainly solves the problem about how to eat when you've no money to buy food with. :-)

Muhaha!


Or do they simply hope that if they make things uncomfortable enough for them, they'll merely *go away* and stop being irritating?

They become Deatheaters :-( or they have rebellions ( Goblins, anyone?)

[pauraque]

Also, re Harry: It appears to have been prophesied that Harry will kill Voldemort (well, or vice versa, but I'm assuming that's narratively unlikely), so something will have to change in Harry's psychological makeup to permit that. You're right, he's not a killer by nature, and it's worrisome that he'll have to become one.

[dphearson.livejournal.com]

But the prophesey states that one cannot live while the other survives, or something like that. So while Voldie chooses to murder and kill, that does not mean Harry must choose to do so to survive.

And yes, though I am a Snapeist, I like that. I really do.

[caesia390.livejournal.com]

one cannot live while the other survives

see, that's what i really don't get about the prophecy. they're both surviving during everything we've seen so far. voldie tried to kill harry once - harry survived. voldemort still lived (albeit, in an odd sort of way). GoF - that whole wand dohicky, i would call that a confrontation... and yet - hey, they're both alive!!! what's the deal here??

we interpret the prophecy to mean that, what, another killing curse has to be involved??? i think i'm with firenze in believing that it's all, if not total bullshit, then at least too obscure to draw reliable conclusions from.

[asphodeline.livejournal.com]

EDIT: Almost forgot to mention-- Chloe is going to be fine
Almost forgot to mention!!!!!!! We've all been waiting on tenterhooks here!!! So pleased...
coming back later to read all the new PoA stuff

[caesia390.livejournal.com]

Almost forgot to mention-- Chloe is going to be fine.

WAA HOO!!!!!!!!! :D

[crimsonclad.livejournal.com]

Sirius's reaction is fascinatingly understated.

Which is interesting, if only because the fanon Sirius tends to run around screaming things and generally being the exact opposite of subtle. There is rage and a certain amount of poor impulse control, to be sure, but no one has thought about this situation more than Sirius. Even Remus got a break one night a month.

Interesting that you bring up the fact that Sirius claims guilt for the Potters however- because isn't the knowledge of his innocence the touchstone that kept him sane in Azkaban? His level of guilt seems terribly mutable, considering. I wonder if that shows the difference between the Sirius who went in and the Sirius who came out. Young, spirited Sirius was locked away with only the knowledge that he didn't do it.

Older, nearly destroyed Sirius isn't sure that such a distinction is even possible. Until the Potters, Peter had only ever done what James and Sirius wanted him to do. Does that mean Sirius wanted it to happen? To him, it might.

[muridae-x.livejournal.com]

Interesting that you bring up the fact that Sirius claims guilt for the Potters however- because isn't the knowledge of his innocence the touchstone that kept him sane in Azkaban?

But we're talking about two different innocences here. Sirius sat in Azkaban for all those years knowing that he was innocent of the crime that the wizarding community sent him there for - killing Peter Pettigrew and a bunch of muggles. And that was enough to keep him sane. But he didn't resist being arrested for it and sentenced, because he thought he was guilty of something else: of having failed to adequately safeguard James and Lily, of having trusted the traitor and not trusted the one who was true, of being the one who by trying to be too clever and outguess Voldemort, finds himself ultimately responsible for the death of his friends.

Everybody else would lay that charge at Voldemort's door, since he was the one actively in Godric's Hollow waving a wand at them. But Sirius was in shock at their deaths when Peter framed him for murder, and that made him passive, self-condemnatory, and depressed.

If Peter had framed him six months later, when he'd had time to get a grip on himself and adjust to the reality of his friends' deaths a little, it might have been a different story.

[pauraque]

Re: guilt and innocence, muridae_x took the words right out of my mouth.

Which is interesting, if only because the fanon Sirius tends to run around screaming things and generally being the exact opposite of subtle.

Since I'm not a Sirius writer, I've tended not to examine him as carefully as I have other characters, which is one thing I'm trying to rectify in the present re-read. One thing I'm noticing is that Sirius, at this point, is swinging wildly from anguished-yet-controlled to bloodthirsty-screaming-mad. From one paragraph to the next, you don't know which Sirius you're going to get. He feels things so completely -- no room for integration of conflicting impulses.

[neotoma.livejournal.com]

As chresimos and I discussed not too long ago, if Sirius was saying this sort of thing when he was arrested, there's no need to accuse the Ministry of railroading him, as fans frequently do. He may well have confessed.

That's possible. We do know he was tossed in Azkaban without a trial, though, so unless JKR is being a bit sloppy with her words, it seems she's implying that Sirius wasn't given any kind of hearing or even interview with the law.

I'm pretty sure that it's stated he wasn't the only one who was condemned without a trial. After all, Hagrid isn't given any kind of hearing in CoS; our favorite half-giant might have been under a cloud, but he would have gotten a least a hearing in a Muggle court, wouldn't he?

[pauraque]

What especially discomfits me about Hagrid is that he isn't a wizard. What's he doing in wizard prison at ALL, trial or no?

[arwencordelia.livejournal.com]

I've always wondered about what really makes one a wizard ... people say they're "fully qualified" wizards/witches on more than one occasion in the books, and I've always taken that to mean someone who's finished Hogwarts. But what about those that haven't? If we go by Hagrid's statement in PS/SS, Harry's already a wizard, not having been to Hogwarts for even a day yet. And he'll be an even better wizard once he's been "trained up a bit."

Hagrid can do magic, he's just not supposed to; and he attended Hogwarts, though he was expelled. Then there's other minor characters. Tom (I think?), the innkeeper at the Leaky Cauldron, seems to be able to do magic. And there's house elves, who no one claims are wizards, but can do magic just the same. It seeems to be more of a blood thing (imagine that!) than ability. Hagrid could be a wizard, I guess, because he has one wizard parent. A house elf could not, nor could anything classified as a "magical creature", sentient or not. Also, Fleur Delacour is most definitely a witch, but I don't guess a full-blooded veela would be considered one.

I wonder if house elves, or Goblins would be sent to Azkaban for a crime that would land a wizard there... Or how about a Muggle who, say, killed a wizard? Hm...something for me to ponder while spending a weekend in the woods:-)

[pauraque]

I guess my question comes down to why Azkaban is as bad at it is. I'm assuming it's because it's proven necessary for it to be that way in order to keep wizards incarcerated. In which case, it would be pointless as well as cruel to subject non-magic-users to such an experience.

[neotoma.livejournal.com]

In which case, it would be pointless as well as cruel to subject non-magic-users to such an experience.

But how is that a bar to incarcerating non-magicals?

The Wizarding World *is* incredibly cruel, after all. There doesn't seem to be an ethic against being cruel if you can get away with it.