PoA 18 :: PSA

[pauraque_bk]

In Chapter 17, check out discussions of whether Sirius views himself as innocent, and wizarding law as applied to non-wizards.

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PoA 18: Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Prongs

'[The witnesses] didn't see what they thought they saw!' said Black savagely[...] (257)

Shouldn't come as a surprise. The witnesses were Muggles -- can they be expected to reliably report on something as bizarre as a magical duel? Also suggests the malleability of the mind: these particular Muggles were Obliviated after giving their statements.

'If you're going to tell them the story, get a move on, Remus,' snarled Black[...] (258)

Remus does take his time with the exposition. I wonder if he realizes before Snape points it out that he's forgotten his medication.

Lupin broke off. There had been a loud creak behind him. The bedroom door had opened of its own accord. (258)

Snape's entrance. He doesn't hear anything before this -- ie, the assertion that Peter is alive and Sirius is innocent. All he hears is information he already had (Remus's school days), and some of Sirius badmouthing him.

'[...]This house --' Lupin looked miserably around the room, '-- the tunnel that leads to it -- they were built for my use.' (259)

Why a whole house? Why an above-ground structure? Why all the furniture? If Remus transforms more than one night a month, this could make some kind of sense... but still -- did they really leave him by himself as a human in this house during the days of the full moon? If so... that's horrible.

'[...]I was separated from humans to bite, so I bit and scratched myself instead.' (259)

I think this was where I got the notion that he would have been restrained -- otherwise, he'd have done himself serious damage.

'And there were near misses, many of them. We laughed about them afterwards. We were young, thoughtless -- carried away with our own cleverness.' (260)

In OotP, young!Remus doesn't seem the type to laugh about something like that. I think it more likely WPP laughed about it, and Remus, as usual, failed to object.

'I sometimes felt guilty about betraying Dumbledore's trust, of course ... he had admitted me to Hogwarts when no other Headmaster would have done so, and he had no idea I was breaking the rules he had set down for my own and others' safety. He never knew I had led three fellow students into becoming Animagi illegally. But I always managed to forget my guilty feelings every time we sat down to plan our next month's adventure. And I haven't changed...'

Lupin's face had hardened, and there was self-disgust in his voice. 'All this year, I have been battling with myself, wondering whether I should tell Dumbledore that Sirius was an Animagus. But I didn't do it. Why? Because I was too cowardly. It would have meant admitting that I'd betrayed his trust while I was at school, admitting that I'd led others along with me ... and Dumbledore's trust has meant everything to me. He let me into Hogwarts as a boy, and he gave me a job, when I have been shunned all my adult life, unable to find paid work because of what I am. And so I convinced myself that Sirius was getting into the school using Dark Arts he learnt from Voldemort, that being an Animagus had nothing to do with it [...]' (260-261)

Some of Remus's self-assessment is fair. Both as a child and as an adult, he's done things he knew to be wrong, and has consistently stifled his emotions ("forget my guilty feelings") or his reason ("convinced myself") to provide false justification. It's good that he realizes it, though I'm not sure it causes him to change his behavior.

However, Remus is taking more blame than he deserves. It isn't true that he led WPP to do wrong -- he tried to keep his lycanthropy secret, and they were very capable of breaking the rules on their own. From what we saw in OotP, Remus didn't urge them to bad behavior. What they did is on them.

As for Dumbledore... okay. Remus is right that he should have told Dumbledore that Sirius was an Animagus. To keep silent was dangerous and wrong. However, I disagree with Remus's view of Dumbledore as a saintly benefactor whose trust should be kept by any means necessary.

-Dumbledore allowed Remus to come to school, but he did not do enough to make it safe. He shouldn't have been left unattended in the Shrieking Shack; he should have been under guard, and the entrance to the Willow should have been watched. Remus may blame himself for the monthly rampages, but Dumbledore was the authority in the situation, and if he couldn't make Remus secure, he shouldn't have invited him to school in the first place.

-Dumbledore went on to make Remus a Prefect, which may have been well-intentioned, but was frankly the last thing he needed. He was trying to keep his secret, to stay out of the spotlight. At least two of his friends were more or less out of control, and Remus apparently went along with whatever they wanted to do, due to his own need for friendship. Putting him in a position of authority makes no sense -- it only heaped more guilt and pressure on his shoulders.

-Dumbledore gave Remus a job... but only when it was convenient for Dumbledore. He gave Gilderoy Lockhart the position before he thought of Remus.

In short (too late!), Remus gives Dumbledore too much credit, which skews his self-perception in a couple of different directions. He shouldn't blame himself completely for things Dumbledore could and should have prevented -- nor is it reasonable for him to view "Dumbledore's trust" as some all-important currency to be hoarded at any cost.

'We were in the same year, you know, and we -- er -- didn't like each other very much[...]' (261)

'Sirius thought it would be -- er -- amusing, to tell Snape all he had to do was prod the knot on the tree-trunk[...]' (261)

Remus's understatements here, though doubtless maddening to Snape as he listens in, are understandable. No matter what he feels about the Prank, it would not behoove him to say anything that might upset Sirius, who, as anyone can see, is extremely dangerous in his current mental state.

'[...]He especially disliked James. Jealous, I think, of James's talent on the Quidditch pitch[...]' (261)

Does Remus really believe this? Does anyone? Though Snape takes an interest in how his house does in Quidditch now, it seems out of character for young!Snape to give two shits about sport. And even if the animosity did start in a sport-related way, it certainly became about much more than that -- James's hatred of the Dark Arts and Snape's love of them, for one thing.

Again, it makes sense right now for Remus to downplay things that might get Sirius upset, but I think this is part of a pattern of denial for Remus where James is concerned, as demonstrated in OotP.


Phew. Previous re-read posts are here.

*

Hey, y'all know that classic, much-recommended fic by ellen_fremedon, "Slowly, But Exceedingly Fine"?

It's not called that.

"Slowly, But Exceeding Fine" [NC-17] has somehow had the wrong name very firmly attached to it by fandom. Every time anyone has ever mentioned it to me, they've added the errant -ly, so it was quite a surprise for me to learn that it shouldn't be there.

I mention it only because, like Colonel Blake, I am a stickler for akkeracy.

Comments

[maidenjedi]

I was going to object to your assertion about Dumbledore, but then I read on, and you're absolutely right. Dumbledore *didn't do enough* to keep Remus safe....and it's a quality about him that we later learn is tragically habitual. In OotP, when Dumbledore owns up to Harry about the prophecy and the scar and everything, and takes partial responsibility for Sirius' death (and I really think he should take more responsibility than that, but that's just me), we see that Dumbledore's as flawed as any human character. Harry's illusions of him are shattered in that one chapter of OotP.

I rather wonder at Remus' illusions never being shattered, but then again, Remus is very different from Harry. Being a werewolf is something he takes as his personal responsibility, not as a condition that he's a victim of (something I kind of admire about him, but in his case it's also a problem). Remus is used to the fact that very, very few people in the Wizarding world would trust him one iota, and the great trust Dumbledore places in him must mean the world to him. Just as his friends' acceptance of him blinds Remus to their faults, Dumbledore's implicit trust in and eventual hiring of Remus blind the latter to any ulterior motive or failure on the former's part.

That said, I think Remus might have turned Dumbledore down in the past - Hogwarts had to be full of extremely painful memories for Remus, and I doubt he thought he had the constitution to face them. Remus appears to have been able to support himself prior to the end of PoA, which is about the time that we're told Dolores Umbridge gets legislation passed that prevents werewolves from getting legitimate work. And, Dumbledore admits in OotP that he had grossly underestimated Voldemort's attempts to get at Harry, and we know that the threat had grown significantly since Harry came to Hogwarts. Quirrell, we're told, had been there for awhile as DADA professor. Lockhart was hired presumably because he was the only one who wanted the post, and Dumbledore isn't above hiring less-than-satisfactory instructors (Trelawney) because of an ulterior motive - what if Lockhart's hiring had to do with Dumbledore wanting to impart a lesson to the narcissistic (sp) cad? There are surely things going on that we know little of, and how could Dumbledore know that Tom Riddle's spirit would infect Ginny Weasley and all that mess would have happened?

I would like JKR to answer the question of the motive behind Remus Lupin's hiring, and as an addendum answer the question of why he wasn't asked sooner. The easy answer is plot device, but I want a better response than that!

[pauraque]

what if Lockhart's hiring had to do with Dumbledore wanting to impart a lesson to the narcissistic (sp) cad?

You know, I really like that idea. Dumbledore is a huge meddler with a finger in every pie -- and that's just the stuff Harry knows about. It seems very characteristic that he'd be concerning himself with the affairs of all sorts of people, not just "important" ones.

[dphearson.livejournal.com]

On Remus and blame:

Thank you for beating me to the punch about the 'wonderfulness' of Dumbledore's character.

As for the sport bit: It seems an especially shitty thing to say, in light of what we heard from the Map and in light of what Sirius said about thinking it would be a good idea to have his transformed frined rip a boy into pieces. Even now, in light what we did see in OOTP- Snape as a clumsy boy who probably couldnt hold on to a broom- why bring that up? We love to point out about how Severus just can't let things go. But in this scene , Remus is equally guilty.

[jeddy83.livejournal.com]

nor is it reasonable for him to view "Dumbledore's trust" as some all-important currency to be hoarded at any cost.

It's interesting that you have used the word reasonable here. I think given his particular life experiences that is quite reasonable for him to give Dumbledore more credit than is his due. After all, being allowed to attend Hogwart's is clearly something he views as important, and I'm sure it is something that his parents reinforced at the time. Not to mention the fact that whether or not he does place such value on Dumbledore's trust is not a reflection of how good or trustworthy Dumbledore is, but rather how dependant Remus is on his patronage.

Does Remus really believe this? Does anyone? Though Snape takes an interest in how his house does in Quidditch now, it seems out of character for young!Snape to give two shits about sport.

It is entirely possible, and even likely, that nobody knows exactly how or why the conflict between James and Snape came about. But comments like this one from PoA Chapter 14 might have lead people to think that was the reason.

"How extraordinarily like your father you are, Potter," Snape said suddenly, his eyes glinting. "He too was exceedingly arrogant. A small amount of talent on the Quidditch field made him think he was a cut above the rest of us too. Strutting around the place with his friends and admirers... The resemblance between you is uncanny."

[eponis.livejournal.com]

This chapter has lovely analysis, as always.

I feel like I'm not the right person to be commenting on this, because while I've read a fair share of British school novels, I wasn't actually there. Nevertheless. The point about Snape's comment about James made Remus's Quidditch comment suddenly click into place. It wasn't that Snape cared about sports; it was that, from what I know of that sort of school at that time, talent on the Quidditch pitch determined your social rank. There were the students who were good at sports, the hangers-on of those students, and the outcasts. Snape wasn't good at sports, and, at least by fifth year, he wasn't a hanger-on. (He may have attached himself to Lucius Malfoy when younger, as hinted by Sirius's comment in OotP, but that's speculative, and in any case irrelevant for their later schooling.) That left him as a social outcast, someone who would have a circle of students (not just the Marauders) laughing at him when he was mocked. So yes, ultimately he was jealous of James's ability, simply because James's ability was what made him such a popular student.

(This is where I could insert RL/SS speculation, about the possibility that Snape was additionally bitter at James for what he perceived as James's popularity attracting Remus to his side. And it's not even necessarily a romantic issue; James was constantly surrounded by a circle of friends (Sirius and Remus), worshippers (Peter), and onlookers (the crowd) Whether or not the friendships were genuine, the social status of sports could have led Snape to credit all that "unmerited" popularity to James's Quidditch skills.)

[jeddy83.livejournal.com]

Oh no, I definitely think you have the right of it as far as the weight of sporting achievement in determining popularity. That seems to be pretty well universal, in English speaking cultures at least. However, I think that there was more to it. An incident before James made the Quidditch team, when they were both spotty first years, something simple that escalated. Everything else that we know about James doesn't suggest to me that he went around randomly picking on people.

[wolfie-thu.livejournal.com]

Everything else that we know about James doesn't suggest to me that he went around randomly picking on people.

Except that Remus says in OotP James went around hexing random people- at least until his seventh year. Snape just seems to have been his favorite target.
I can't see why Lupin would say this if it was a lie as he's trying to convince Harry at the time that his father wasn't a complete asshole.

[neotoma.livejournal.com]

I don't see why Remus said that at all. He seems much more focused on how cool James was and how much fun MWPP had than on reassuring Harry in any regards.

Remus: "Your dad wasn't a complete jerk! He hexed other people, too! At random!"

Harry: ...

Remus: "I'm not helping. I'll be quiet now..."

[maidenjedi]

It makes a lot of sense to say that a talent for sports increases your chances for popularity. And if Quidditch is as popular for wizards as football/soccer is for Muggles, then in school the good Quidditch players would be revered socially. It's not about sports, precisely, it's just about who counts on the popularity scale.

So Snape's hatred of James could be construed by James' friends as being about James' talent for Quidditch, because many of Snape's jabs at James could come from the POV of a smart, nerdy kid who isn't a part of that type of crowd and finds that being beat in academics by a "jock" insufferable.

It hits me that I *knew* Snape in high school. Hell, I knew *James*. They're not particularly difficult to figure out, once you get past the wizarding stuff.

[pauraque]

many of Snape's jabs at James could come from the POV of a smart, nerdy kid who isn't a part of that type of crowd and finds that being beat in academics by a "jock" insufferable.

See, this is part of my point. Snape didn't have to be jealous of James's Quidditch talent -- James was also very intelligent and good in school, which *did* threaten the space Snape had carved out for himself, and was something he cared deeply about.

[asphodeline.livejournal.com]

that being beat in academics by a "jock" insufferable
Sorry if I'm being thick, but can you give a definition of "jock"?? I think we may use it differently!

[pauraque]

"Jock" is an American term for a kid (usually a boy) in school who likes and is good at sports, and is popular because of it.

[asphodeline.livejournal.com]

thank you, another new word!!!!
I've only ever heard it used here referring to a Scot, in the same way a Welshman might be described as a Taff - not really insulting but not altogether friendly!

[maidenjedi]

"Jock" - athlete.

Jock's also slang for, um, jockstrap.

[asphodeline.livejournal.com]

well that's the other instance I've heard it used in. I could almsot see Snape insulting James by using it that way!!

[neotoma.livejournal.com]

The only problem I see with this is that while athletes do get into the top of the popularity hierarchy, nerds don't *care* about it.

And Snape was definitely a nerd as a teen. His social group would have revolved around nerdiness -- who had knew the most 'cool' spells, or could curse the best or whatever their obsession was.

The only way Snape would be a complete outside would be if Hogwarts was too small to support a nerd minority of any size. Given that JKR says Howgwarts has 1000 students, I would expect there to be 30 or so students who didn't care about Quidditch or the popularity rankings and were instead focused on nerdy magical topics.

Also, given that he's able to referee Quidditch, he has to be 1) fairly interested in the sport and 2) pretty good on a broom. The qualifications for Quidditch referee are rather stringent, aren't they?

[maidenjedi]

Nerds don't generally care, unless they're somehow threatened by the jocks. And some would be, by *smart* jocks, which James clearly was. Snape was obviously quite smart himself, and likely couldn't stand having to endure James as competition.

Just my take on it. ::shrug::

[pauraque]

My trouble with Remus is that I think he has a bad habit of selling himself short. While it's hard to imagine him not feeling dependent on Dumbledore as a child, consider that when we meet him in PoA, he has fended for himself for many years under terrible circumstances. He says he couldn't find paid work, but he must have, or he wouldn't have survived (wizards aren't much for charity, as Tom Riddle can attest). But he glosses over this whole struggle as if it never happened, as if he never had to rely on himself. He speaks as though Dumbledore's been supporting him all this time. That's the part I find unreasonable.

[neotoma.livejournal.com]

I think Dumbledore (and the Wizarding World in general) encourages that sort of extreme loyalty. It's an necessary component of the patronage system, I believe.

[marinarusalka.livejournal.com]

Dumbledore allowed Remus to come to school, but he did not do enough to make it safe. He shouldn't have been left unattended in the Shrieking Shack; he should have been under guard, and the entrance to the Willow should have been watched. Remus may blame himself for the monthly rampages, but Dumbledore was the authority in the situation, and if he couldn't make Remus secure, he shouldn't have invited him to school in the first place.

I also have to wonder how much of a favor Dumbledore did Remus in this case, given the apparently nonexistent career opportunities for a Hogwarts-educated werewolf. Seems to me, Remus would've been better off getting a Muggle education, like that one Weasley who became an accountant. Remus would've made a very good accountant, I'm sure.

But it's not something he would've thought of at age eleven -- at the time, the opportunity to go to Hogwarts and study magic must've seemed like the most wonderful thing in the world, and since those seven years were most likely the happiest years of his life, I can see why Remus would value Dumbledore's regard and trust more than is actually warranted.

[xx-miyuki-xx.livejournal.com]

I also have to wonder how much of a favor Dumbledore did Remus in this case, given the apparently nonexistent career opportunities for a Hogwarts-educated werewolf. Seems to me, Remus would've been better off getting a Muggle education, like that one Weasley who became an accountant. Remus would've made a very good accountant, I'm sure.


Butting in, here, but I agree *wholeheartedly* with this. After
reading OotP chapter on career advice it struck me that it must have been *torture* for teenager!Remus to watch his friends pick out what they wanted to do with their lives while he was stuck with the burden of knowing that it didn't really matter how he did on his O.W.Ls because no one was going to hire him anyway. I mean really, this has to do wonders for his self-esteem. :/

He gives Dumbledore so much credit, but really, it didn't help him out much *at all*, and really only would have driven in even further the idea that as a werewolf, he doesn't have any options for the future.

[nakedcelt.livejournal.com]

A werewolf loose in the Muggle world?

Come on, you know how the Ministry would react to that.

[pauraque]

Quite right. Though I agree Remus would have been better off, the Ministry wouldn't have allowed it. A nice contribution to Remus's sense of himself as a helpless victim.

[neotoma.livejournal.com]

Also suggests the malleability of the mind: these particular Muggles were Obliviated after giving their statements.

Conveniently erasing any chance for a re-trial. I really hate Wizarding justice at times.

Both as a child and as an adult, he's done things he knew to be wrong, and has consistently stifled his emotions ("forget my guilty feelings") or his reason ("convinced myself") to provide false justification. It's good that he realizes it, though I'm not sure it causes him to change his behavior.

I don't think he does change, based on his behavior in OotP. I don't know what could *make* him change, except getting someone else killed by his inaction -- which is more likely to provoke more inaction, frankly.

However, I disagree with Remus's view of Dumbledore as a saintly benefactor whose trust should be kept by any means necessary.

Dumbledore has a long string of dubious decisions, ranging at least back to the MWPP days, if not all the way back to Tom Riddle's schooldays. He's got a very bad habit of trying to make people pretend that things are a-ok when they're not, and forcing people together when they aren't at all compatible.

That's hardly the actions of a saintly benefactor.

nor is it reasonable for him to view "Dumbledore's trust" as some all-important currency to be hoarded at any cost.

But Remus isn't the only one who feels that way. Hagrid and Snape do as well. All three men set great stock in how they perceive that Dumbledore trusts them.

Snape, though, might have caught a clue at the end of PoA. I think that's why his reaction to faux-Moody's insinuation that Dumbledore *doesn't* trust Snape cause such a reaction in GoF -- Snape was worried that faux-Moody was *right*. And by OotP Snape's attitude towards Dumbledore seems to have seriously fractured, given the way the Occlumency lessons ended.

[pauraque]

And by OotP Snape's attitude towards Dumbledore seems to have seriously fractured, given the way the Occlumency lessons ended.

Yes, good point. Very different from the Snape of mid-PoA, during the Halloween incident.

[asphodeline.livejournal.com]

However, I disagree with Remus's view of Dumbledore as a saintly benefactor whose trust should be kept by any means necessary

Yes, I would agree. As the series progresses we see more and more mistakes/mishandlings of Dumbledore's. By OoTP I really started to dilike and mistrust himand perhaps this is deliberate on the part of JKR. I don't think Dumbledore is wicked but he does come across as manipulative in the extreme and with little regard to the 'manipulee'
As to hiring Remus, yes, probably at this stage a plot thing but possibly D/Dore is thinking ahead and going for the Werewolf vote in general as things hot up. Remus seems to always be such a grateful character that he ignores/chooses to ignore faults - no, he wasn't well cared for as a child at school or well guarded and the same appear true of him as a teacher but he is blind to this.

'We were in the same year, you know, and we -- er -- didn't like each other very much
'Sirius thought it would be -- er -- amusing, to tell Snape all he had to do was prod the knot on the tree-trunk
This is Remus playing the good, unbiased teacher again. He's *so* tactful and I like the fact that at this point Snape is in the room too. He really doesn't seem to dislike Snape as much as James and Sirius. It's easy to see where the RL/SS brigade comes from - I'm in there too!

He especially disliked James. Jealous, I think, of James's talent on the Quidditch pitch

I would agree to an extent with previous comments about the status of sporting prowess in the school system but I do think there's something more that we simply haven't been told yet and probably something that started early in school or (my own theory ) possibly earlier.
I have a feeling there's maybe a family link to the Blacks or the Potters with Snape or maybe a parents thing. Snape seems to be insanely jealous of James but I don't think Quidditch is the answer. Is Remus just going for the tactful version again?

[crimsonclad.livejournal.com]

I wonder if Remus is using Quidditch jealousy as the reason for Snape's animosity in part because Harry can relate to that situation with Draco. Remus' description of the Snape "incident" only seems disturbingly understated to us because of what we see in OoTP, and Harry isn't even ready to deal with Sirius and James' cruelty in fifth year, let alone third. I think Remus is trying to protect Harry here as much as he's trying to soothe Sirius, and Draco's jealousy/dislike of Harry is much less dark than Snape's opinion about James.

For now, Harry can think that Snape was jealous about something superficial, and that James had done nothing to deserve such animosity, which is how Harry must feel about himself.

When Remus looks at Harry, he sees that he has the athleticism, looks, and charisma of James- but doesn't use it to prey on people who are different. He'll fight back, being a teenager, but casual cruelty doesn't really occur to him. I wonder if it helps Remus pretend James wasn't so callous, or if it reminds him of how bad things were almost allowed to get?