PoA 22

[pauraque_bk]

First: Big thanks to everyone who commented on "I will not shun you" and "Daddy Snaip". I try to individually acknowledge everyone who sends feedback (even on silly stuff), but I haven't had much time on my hands lately. I absolutely do appreciate it, though! ♥

*

Also a victim of real-life timesuck was the Chapter 21 discussion, which I barely participated in, but did read. There's a lot in there that pertains to Chapter 22, so you might want to take a look if you haven't already done so.

Highlights:

-Does Snape really care about the Order of Merlin?

-Did Dumbledore patch things up with Snape off-camera?

-Thematic purposes of the Time Turner (I may have been a bit hasty in saying that there aren't any)


PoA 22: Owl Post Again

'HE DIDN'T DISAPPARATE!' Snape roared, now very close at hand. 'YOU CAN'T APPARATE OR DISAPPARATE INSIDE THIS CASTLE! THIS -- HAS -- SOMETHING -- TO -- DO -- WITH -- POTTER!'
[...]
'THEY HELPED HIM ESCAPE, I KNOW IT!' Snape howled, pointing at Harry and Hermione. His face was twisted, spit was flying from his mouth. (306)

Yipes. This is just some of the hysterical bellowing Snape does in this scene, in front of Fudge and others. Pretty well confirms that it wasn't the Order of Merlin Snape cared about, just Sirius.

'I was worried this mornin', mind ... thought [Buckbeak] mighta met Professor Lupin in the grounds, but Lupin says he never ate anythin' las' night ...' (308)

I wonder if Remus would really remember it if he had. Though I guess he does retain memories of what he does as a wolf, since he remembers going about with the Animagi.

'[...]Professor Dumbledore managed to convince Fudge that I was trying to save your lives.' [Lupin] sighed. 'That was the final straw for Severus. I think the loss of the Order of Merlin hit him hard. So he -- er -- accidentally let slip that I am a werewolf this morning at breakfast.'
'You're not leaving just because of that!' said Harry.
Lupin smiled wryly.
'This time tomorrow, the owls will start arriving from parents -- they will not want a werewolf teaching their children, Harry. And after last night, I see their point. I could have bitten any of you ... that must never happen again.' (309)

If Remus really thinks Snape was most concerned about the award, I'd call that more evidence that he really doesn't understand anything about the man.

Lupin's resignation has been discussed several times during the re-read. I don't think Dumbledore asked him to resign, but I doubt he would have let him stay -- it reads to me like he wanted to spare Remus the indignity of being forced out, and Remus took that chance.

I think the fact that Snape outed Lupin is indicative that he and Dumbledore are still on the outs at this point. I doubt Snape would have directly disobeyed his wishes otherwise. This is the first time Snape does so... the second is stopping the Occlumency lessons in OotP.

'From what the Headmaster told me this morning, you saved a lot of lives last night, Harry[...]' (309)

Well... three. Which is a lot for one kid, I suppose.

'Sirius told me all about how they became Animagi last night,' said Dumbledore, smiling. 'An extraordinary achievement -- not least, keeping it quiet from me. And then I remembered the most unusual form your Patronus took, when it charged Mr Malfoy down[...]' (312)

For me, this answers the question of whether Dumbledore knew they were Animagi in advance -- I don't think he did. He's capable of obscuring the truth, but it seems odd that he would go so far as to say that he only made the Patronus-Prongs connection after talking to Sirius, if he really knew about Prongs at the time.

Wonder what they'll give us next year [for a Defence teacher]?' said Seamus Finnigan gloomily.
'Maybe a vampire,' suggested Dean Thomas hopefully. (313)

Could be a hint that Snape will eventually take the DADA position, as I believe will be the case. Yes, I know he's not a vampire, but the imagery is there.

Crookshanks took the order to the Owl Office for me. I used your name but told them to take the gold from Gringotts vault number seven hundred and eleven -- my own. (315)

This gave me quite a start; in OotP (UK first edition), Sirius dies on page 711. It must be a coincidence, but still... weirdness.

Also, this is not a very plausible explanation. Can I just send a cat to Gringotts and take money out of any account I want?

I thought your friend Ron might like to keep this owl, as it's my fault he no longer has a rat. (316)

A hint of the more put-together Sirius of GoF. He's gained enough perspective that he can make a slight joke about the Peter situation. Also, he doesn't make any attempt (that we know of) to go after Peter now that he's free. Though he eventually deteriorates again once he's stuck in his old house, he has gotten something of a grip on himself by this time.


Previous re-read posts are here.

I'm going to do one more wrap-up post, and then that's it!

*

If you've been enjoying the re-read posts, you may be interested in following accioslash. She's just finished OotP for the first time, and is doing daily posts on her impressions.

Comments

[spug.livejournal.com]

Any chance you'll do any of the other books? :P

[pauraque]

Yes, I think chances are pretty good. :) Not right away, though -- it's hard work! In the wrap-up post, I think I'll have a poll to see which book people would be most interested in doing next.

[spug.livejournal.com]

*rejoices*

[kragey.livejournal.com]

Y'know, I also found the "711" thing kind of creepy. I don't think it would be possible to pinpoint such an "important" moment in OotP to an exact page, but the coincidence really makes you stop and think. O_o

[pauraque]

If he'd gone on to mention that he took out 806 galleons, that might have been cause for worry. *g*

[muridae-x.livejournal.com]

Well... three. Which is a lot for one kid, I suppose.

Five, actually. :-) Peter, when he refuses to let Remus and Sirius kill him and wants to turn him over to the authorities instead. Buckbeak and Sirius, obviously, when he and Hermione go back in time. But he also saves Sirius a second time by sending out his Patronus against the Dementors, and saves himself and Hermione from them at the same time.

How many of those Dumbledore was thinking about when he made his comment about them being able to save more than one life that night, I couldn't pretend to guess.

Can I just send a cat to Gringotts and take money out of any account I want?

I don't think Crookshanks actually went any further than the Owl Post Office in Hogsmeade, carrying a note of authorisation to Gringotts and an order for Quality Quidditch Supplies. He'd have passed Sirius's sealed orders on to an owl, an owl would have taken them to Diagon Alley... and the goblins wouldn't have cared whose vault it was, nor whether he was a wanted fugitive.

[nakedcelt.livejournal.com]

Well, let's see. If preventing Dementors from sucking out people's souls counts as saving lives (as is implied by Dumbledore's comment), then...

1. Peter, by telling Sirius and Remus not to kill him.
2. Remus and
3. Sirius, by knocking Snape unconscious so he couldn't call the Dementors.
4. Buckbeak, by sneaking him into the Forest.
5. Ron,
6. Hermione and
7. himself-three-hours-previously, by conjuring a Patronus (and probably Sirius and Remus again, come to think of it).
8. Sirius again, by getting him out of the window.

I think that counts as a lot.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_hannelore/]

The whole thing about losing the Order of the Merlin award seems a major euphemism for... something. Especially given Snape's outburst and Dumbledore's comment that Snape's just been "very disappointed." (probably not correct exact quote, as I recall)

I remember being so completely taken aback by Snape's flying rage and how I've seen so little of this in fanfic (I'm sure it's out there).

Wow, the 711 is a weird coincidence (or not! oooo...).

[muridae-x.livejournal.com]

The whole thing about losing the Order of the Merlin award seems a major euphemism for... something.

My own feeling is that Lupin was trying to make light of Snape's actions, so worded it in terms that would go along with Harry's own private opinion of the man. It would have been far too messy and raw for him to touch upon Snape's feelings of rage, resentment and anger against himself and Sirius, and far too hurtful to Harry if he'd mentioned the way that Snape lays the blame (often correctly) for pretty much everything at "Potter"'s door.

The Order of Merlin is a convenient shorthand, which implies all of the above but doesn't actually say so.

[maidenjedi]

I think I agree....Snape is obviously less concerned about the Order of Merlin than he is about, well, *being right*. He also feels, I think, that Dumbledore owes him something, but he knows that's an unjustified feeling.

Uh, tangent. Anyway. Lupin understands Snape better than we know, I think, but in explaining things to Harry or the other kids, Lupin will always be extremely circumspect. Not out of regard for Snape, but out of a general "need-to-know basis" kind of way.

[nakedcelt.livejournal.com]

I'm not so sure... Given what we've seen of Snape's childhood in OotP, I don't think he's had many awards and public recognitions coming his way. While I'm sure having his name on some official piece of paper wasn't itself that big a deal for Snape, I do get the feeling that his disdain for the world in general reflects a perception of disdain on "the world"'s part for him, and losing a rare chance at a little public acclaim probably hurts well out of proportion to his prior desire for it.

[pauraque]

You may be right about that. He is very concerned with being treated with respect (probably, as you say, since he hasn't had much respect so far), and if he associates public recognition with that, it might matter quite a lot to him. However, it's difficult to say, since whatever upset he had over the award is so overshadowed by his rage at Sirius, Harry, and (I believe) Dumbledore.

[neotoma.livejournal.com]

I remember being so completely taken aback by Snape's flying rage and how I've seen so little of this in fanfic (I'm sure it's out there).

You'd think with *this* scene as a guide, Snape would get written as passionate, not icy, but people want to fit him into the 'cool manipulator' box for some reason, when he should be in the 'hotheadd partisan' box.

[maidenjedi]

Well, it would make sense to *sometimes* paint Snape as a hothead, but this is the first time we *see* him fly into a rage. And we don't see it again until OotP. Both times it has to do with MWPP. I think Snape's generally very, very good at holding in his thoughts and emotions (he and Lupin have this in common), but piss him off just right and he goes nuts. The thing is, it has to be just right. The guy who's spying for Dumbledore, undercover as a Death Eater with the most heinous and vicious group of wizards possible, has to be calm and cool. He can't afford to fly off the handle randomly, and he certainly can't afford to express true passion. Intimately, he'll hold back from it out of a sense of vulnerability, and publicly it could get him killed and expose the Order.

[wolfie-thu.livejournal.com]

I think Snape's generally very, very good at holding in his thoughts and emotions (he and Lupin have this in common), but piss him off just right and he goes nuts.

But wouldn't going nuts when pissed off be something someone who isn't good at controlling their emotions would do? I mean, if your're only in control of your self when you're in a good mood and surrounded by friends, you're not exactly a "cool" person. Lupin stays icy during the entirety of the Shrieking Shack confrontation, but Snape can't even seem to control his hatred of some kid (Harry), no matter how ridiculous it makes him seem, or how detrimental it is to the Order's cause. Even with Occlumency, he still swoops around, spits, flies off the handle, snarls, and generally acts like a first class drama queen.

The guy who's spying for Dumbledore, undercover as a Death Eater with the most heinous and vicious group of wizards possible, has to be calm and cool.
Not necessarily; he could use this anger (especially the anger he feels towards James and company) to conceal the more revealing emotions he might be feeling. Voldemort could use legilmency on him, see that he still hates people on Dumbledore and the Order's side, and conclude that he's still loyal, or at least, that he would rather be helping Voldie than Potter.
And we don't know exactly how Snape is spying now that Voldemort has returned; for all we know he could be looking through keyholes and hiding in air vents, rather than pretending to rejoin Voldie and having actual contact with him and other Death Eaters.

Actually, I think Snape probably uses his anger to hide lots of things, and not just from other people. He'd probably rather believe that he's furious at something/someone, than admit that it makes him scared/sad/etc.

[arwencordelia.livejournal.com]

If Remus really thinks Snape was most concerned about the award, I'd call that more evidence that he really doesn't understand anything about the man.

I'm inclined to be less charitable towards Remus and think that he is actively trivializing Snape's motivation here (by attributing it to Snape's disappointment for missing out on personal glory). I completely agree that Snape is very angry with Dumbledore still, and no longer feels obligated to keep Lupin's secret (something that he may have promised Dumbledore, perhaps at the beginning of term).

I think Snape is especially angry that Dumbledore credited Lupin (at least in front of the Ministry) with saving the kids' lives, when it was really Snape who did so, by removing them from the grounds. And he's particularly angry because Lupin, disregarding precautions taken by Dumbledore and the work done by Snape, forgets to take his Wolfsbane. So for a second time, students are placed in immediate danger from the werewolf, despite everyone's best intentions.

[pauraque]

I think Snape is especially angry that Dumbledore credited Lupin (at least in front of the Ministry) with saving the kids' lives, when it was really Snape who did so, by removing them from the grounds.

Hm, true. Lupin and Snape both ran out there with the same good intention of saving the kids, and both did so in a flawed way -- Snape was also eager to seek personal revenge, and Lupin was dangerous himself.

The fact that Snape lost the award suggests that acknowledgment in the WW depends more on results than intentions. Snape caught Sirius once, and it wasn't his fault Sirius escaped -- but he still gets nothing. Meanwhile, Dumbledore acts as if Lupin (who did even less than Snape) saved the day, which I suspect is a bit wacky for wizarding culture.

It strikes me that Dumbledore's done this before, also at Snape's expense: He awarded Neville points for attempting to stop the Trio from breaking the rules, even though the way he did it was quite ineffectual.

[neotoma.livejournal.com]

The fact that Snape lost the award suggests that acknowledgment in the WW depends more on results than intentions.

And politcal connection -- if Snape were supported by Dumbledore, instead of left to fumble on his own, he wouldn't have gone off the rails in front of Fudge, and might have gotten some acknowledgement out of the Ministry for his efforts.

It strikes me that Dumbledore's done this before, also at Snape's expense:

Indeed, it makes you wonder why Dumbledore is so sure he has Snape's forebearance. I don't think Dumbledore has as much slack as he thinks he does, and once Snape stops swallowing his pride for the Headmaster, it's going to be a rude shock to Dumbledore.

[muridae-x.livejournal.com]

The fact that Snape lost the award suggests that acknowledgment in the WW depends more on results than intentions.

Mmm. My own feeling is that Fudge was so appalled at his spitting rage when Sirius escaped and he started accusing Harry of caused it that he decided that Snape wasn't quite the type they wanted to be admitting to the Order of Merlin. Had Snape continued to keep his cool, even with the prisoner embarrassingly gone again, he might have got the reward for the short-term capture he did achieve. As it was, he came off as yet another dangerous lunatic, and I think that Fudge simply backed off with all possible haste.

[asphodeline.livejournal.com]

'HE DIDN'T DISAPPARATE!' Snape roared, now very close at hand. 'YOU CAN'T APPARATE OR DISAPPARATE INSIDE THIS CASTLE!
Presumably Snape too has read "Hogwarts, a History"!!
It really does show though hust how angry Snape is that he suddenly goes berserk like this and in front of his pupils too.

If Remus really thinks Snape was most concerned about the award, I'd call that more evidence that he really doesn't understand anything about the man
I'm inclined to agree with a previous comment that Lupin probably does know what has truly upset Snape, and it isn't the Order of Merlin. It would certainly be easier to give this explanation to Harry and given that Lupin was cautious before about giving away information about their schooldays it fits in. However, I think it likely that Dumbledore doesn't fully understand the depth of Snape's trauma here and quite possibly does think the loss of the OoM was hard for him. He sems to have misunderstood the dynamics of Snape/Marauders before and trodden on Snape's feelings so why should this episode be any different?

Can I just send a cat to Gringotts and take money out of any account I want?
If so then I'm changing banks - I have enough trouble getting out money when I turn up in person!


(It is very difficult making comments now in view of the film!)

[muridae-x.livejournal.com]

If so then I'm changing banks - I have enough trouble getting out money when I turn up in person!

I'm simply thinking of hiring a post-cat or a post-owl. They've got to be better than a post-person nowadays.

Not that I'm at all bitter about the fact that I live in a postal service blackspot, you understand. :-(

[neotoma.livejournal.com]

This is just some of the hysterical bellowing Snape does in this scene, in front of Fudge and others.

Support for my theory that Fudge didn't believe that Voldemort was back even when Snape showed off the Dark Mark because Snape impressed him as a *loony* here. It's easy to dismiss a man's testimony if you've seen him frothing at the mouth once before *and* had his superior dismiss him.

If Remus really thinks Snape was most concerned about the award, I'd call that more evidence that he really doesn't understand anything about the man.

Frankly, I don't think Remus Lupin *cares* what Snape thinks. For all his quietness, he doesn't strike me as introverted or empathetic -- he's good with the students, but it's more of a showman's love of the spotlight. He strikes me as an extrovert who has been forced to learn to be quiet, not someone who likes quiet of itself. I really wonder if Lupin would be more like Dumbledore if he didn't have to hide so much of himself for safety.

I don't think Dumbledore asked him to resign, but I doubt he would have let him stay -- it reads to me like he wanted to spare Remus the indignity of being forced out, and Remus took that chance.

I wonder how bitter Remus actually is about losing the job. Does he blame Snape at all, or does he really think that the parents are right? It'd be interesting if Remus accepted he was irresponsible, but I'm not sure if it did or will have much effect on his future behavior.

Also, this is not a very plausible explanation. Can I just send a cat to Gringotts and take money out of any account I want?

Heck, the fact that *escaped convict* Sirius Black can use his account while he's on the run indicates that Goblin logic does not resemble our earth logic. Either that, or Goblin banking makes the Swiss looks like pikers when it comes to secret accounts. I wonder how the Aurors or Hit Wizards function, because financial tracking is such an important part of modern law-enforcement investigation.

He's gained enough perspective that he can make a slight joke about the Peter situation.

I think living as far away from cold Azkaban as he can get did Sirius a lot of good -- the birds he uses later are tropical, right? The complete change of climate and country probably helped more than anything, and Sirius should have been sent out of the country again instead of being locked up in Grimauld Place. He might not have contributed much to the Order by living in Tahiti, but he wouldn't have gone bonkers and then got himself killed.

[pauraque]

Sirius should have been sent out of the country again instead of being locked up in Grimauld Place. He might not have contributed much to the Order by living in Tahiti, but he wouldn't have gone bonkers and then got himself killed.

Unfortunately, Dumbledore didn't have anything to gain by keeping Sirius safe and sane. If he had, I imagine he would have worked harder at it.

[neotoma.livejournal.com]

What did Dumbledore gain by letting Sirius go insane and into danger?

Not Harry's trust, that's for sure?

Anyone got any idea for Dumbledore's motivation here? Because his reason really escapes me; as usual, I'm left wondering just how stupid he is...

[threeoranges.livejournal.com]

Perhaps - and my copy of OotP is elsewhere so my memory may be at fault here - the fault lies with Sirius? Perhaps Dumbledore believed that if Sirius Black volunteered his family home as the headquarters for the Order, Sirius Black could not have too much of a problem with spending time there. Natural assumption, really; one would think that if Sirius was being driven mad by the place he'd have said something. So we can assume that Dumbledore didn't use his l33t mind-reading skillz to find out what Sirius really thought, and Sirius was too proud to admit that he was being driven insane by screeching portraits and an evil elf. So he just sits and suffers, and Dumbledore is too busy with his important tasks for that year (1. Avoid Harry's eye whenever he talks to me; 2. Neglect to tell Harry crucial bits of information, same as I do every year; 3. Appoint potentially lethal DADA teacher, same as I do every year...) to notice Sirius's deteriorating mental state.

Hey, it's the best I can come up with...

[dphearson.livejournal.com]

Unfortunately, Dumbledore didn't have anything to gain by keeping Sirius safe and sane. If he had, I imagine he would have worked harder at it.

To be fair to Dumbledore, Sirius was perfectly fine where he was, in Tahiti or Jamaica or the barrier island off of Africa or where ever he was. But Sirius was concerned for Harry and returned to be near him- and do some info gathering on his own. He did not have to be in a cold cave, eating rats, waiting for rations that the kids liberated. He could have stayed in Jamaica, getting some sun and gathering his wit together. Dumbledore, to his credit, is fearful for Sirius, and (foolishly) thought by restricting him to the mausoleum house, he could keep him safe.

[arwencordelia.livejournal.com]

Dumbledore, to his credit, is fearful for Sirius, and (foolishly) thought by restricting him to the mausoleum house, he could keep him safe.

Which is exactly how Dumbledore has treated Harry, first by forbidding his friends to send him anything of substance while he's at Privet Drive, and then by keeping all kinds of important information from him. For example I believe that Harry would have tried harder in Occlumency, even with Snape teaching, if he'd been told why it was so important for him to learn it.

The argument could be made that Dumbledore, as the founder and head of the Order, is indeed very busy. But I think he refuses to tell anyone any more than they absolutely need to know, which makes it impossible for him to delegate some of his responsibilities.

[nakedcelt.livejournal.com]

For example I believe that Harry would have tried harder in Occlumency, even with Snape teaching, if he'd been told why it was so important for him to learn it.

Hmmm... but Dumbledore wasn't acting purely in Harry's short-term interests by keeping him in the dark. Voldemort was likely to try to possess Harry, and any information passed to Harry might then fall into Voldemort's grasp very easily.

It makes me wonder: will the danger of Voldemortic possession still be present in Book 6? Artistically it would be clumsy to repeat stuff like that, but in plot terms why wouldn't Voldemort keep trying to use Harry's mind to spy on the Order?

[arwencordelia.livejournal.com]

any information passed to Harry might then fall into Voldemort's grasp very easily

Exactly, and this is the message that should have been conveyed to Harry. I don't think Harry expects to be told everything, but at 15, he bristles at being told absolutely nothing, especially without an explanation of why he can't be told.

Possession by Voldemort has already happened twice now... Ginny, and Harry. Can't say why, but I have a feeling it will come up again. I've been convinced for a while that we'll learn (eventually) of a spy within the Order, but it would be reallly cool if instead of an actual turncoat it turns out to be someone Voldermort is possessing to gain information! V has that "special connection" with Harry, but I guess he could possess almost anyone.

[tekalynn.livejournal.com]

No, he could have been at a Hogsmeade safehouse all winter, staying undercover and getting free food and shelter.

Bring Back Mopsy. *bitter*

[dphearson.livejournal.com]

See, and I am trying to be fair to Dumbledore. Seriously, he had the tournament and everything going on. Dumbledore had already put himself at risk- and still has one brooding staff member who he knows will proabably blow the whistle on Sirius, for sheer vindictiveness and spite.

[tekalynn.livejournal.com]

Oh, I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to put the blame on Dumbledore there. Sirius wasn't really in his jurisdiction at the time, and as you say he had more than enough on his plate as it was. I was referring to *Rowling*, for cutting out the Mopsy sequence in GoF, thus relegating Sirius to a cave rather than to a supportive home (albeit undercover as a dog).

[dailyplanet.livejournal.com]

I'd like to make a helpful list for Dumbledore.


ALBUS'S "TO DO THIS YEAR!"

1/ Check references on DADA teachers (underline this!!!!)

2/ Instead of imprisoning people to protect them, try not imprisoning people

3/ Upon discovery of a mostly meaningless prophecy, listen, then destroy, not listen, then lock up under guard

4/ Try general plan of just not locking things & people up

5/ Hire a grad student to teach Harry Potter occulmency, they work cheap

6/ MAKE SURE GRAD STUDENT DOES NOT LOATHE POTTER WITH ENTIRE FIBRE OF BEING!!! (essential to maximum success)

7/ Use Occulmency "skill" to help tell who the bad folks are

8/ WISE UP, Voldemort is winning!!! <--- bolded in red

[cheshyre]

That is just great!

[pauraque]

*cackles*

[amythis.livejournal.com]

Brilliant!

[wolfie-thu.livejournal.com]

Heck, the fact that *escaped convict* Sirius Black can use his account while he's on the run indicates that Goblin logic does not resemble our earth logic.

Maybe this has something to do with their mistreatment (goblin rebellions?) by the Ministry in the past, and was a way for the goblins to get some sort of "revenge". (i.e. turning a blind eye to the fact that a wanted criminal has access to lots of gold, as it will cause problems for the Ministry.)