CoS 3

Oct. 5th, 2004 11:26 pm
pauraque_bk: (barty crouch jr (art by appleviking))
[personal profile] pauraque_bk
CoS 3: The Burrow

'Well,' said Fred, 'put it this way -- house-elves have powerful magic of their own, but they can't usually use it without their masters' permission.[...]' (27)

'Well, whoever owns [Dobby] will be an old wizarding family, and they'll be rich,' said Fred.
[George:] '[...]House-elves come with big old manors and castles and places like that, you wouldn't catch one in our house...'
(27-28)
More info on the nature of house-elves, the extensive discussion of which is still going in Chapter 2. I've been mostly sitting back and watching, and loving you guys for being so smart.

For more house-elf fun, check out [livejournal.com profile] manu86's instructive article on HP dialects and accents, including analyses of Winky, Dobby, and Kreacher's speech patterns. They're all different, which I hadn't consciously noticed.

It seemed to go on for hours. Mrs Weasley had shouted herself hoarse before she turned on Harry, who backed away.
'I'm very pleased to see you, Harry, dear,' she said, 'Come in and have some breakfast.'
(30)
As usual, Molly is harsh on her own kids, and startlingly gentle towards Harry by contrast.

Also, the punctuation on that dialogue is as-printed. Typesetting error?

'I've heard Dad talking about [Lucius],' said George. 'He was a big supporter of You Know Who.'
'And when You Know Who disappeared,' said Fred, craning around to look at Harry, 'Lucius Malfoy came back saying he'd never meant any of it. Load of dung -- Dad reckons he was right in You Know Who's inner circle.'
(27)
This is apparently news to Ron. I think there's a lot the older kids know that Ron and Ginny don't. I really like the theory that the history between Lucius and Arthur has something to do with Arthur having been under Imperius during the war. (Here I wanted to link to [livejournal.com profile] skelkins's essay on the subject, but was thwarted by the fact that his/her site is down. Bah.)

Four or five chimneys were perched on top of the red roof [of the Burrow]. (29)

Books were stacked three deep on the mantelpiece[...] (31)

'I don't blame you, dear,' she assured Harry, tipping eight or nine sausages onto his plate. [...] 'But really' (she was now adding three fried eggs to his plate), 'flying an illegal car halfway across the country[...]' (31)
There's an idea [livejournal.com profile] idlerat has mentioned once or twice in discussing the way the HP books are written, that of superabundance. You always get more of everything in the wizarding world -- particularly evident when food is mentioned.

Ratty has also connected this to the overlapping of symbolism and literalism, as here:

"Like she likes to have every magical creature you've ever heard of, all mixed together. Like there are 12 kinds of meat at every meal. And that superabundance carries over into her stylistic choices. Sirius' incarceration in Azkaban symbolized his depression, but he was also depressed..."

And unless Harry's ears were deceiving him, the old radio next to the sink had just announced that coming up was 'Witching Hour, with the popular singing sorceress, Celestina Warbeck'. (31)

Ron's school spellbooks were stacked untidily in a corner, next to a pile of comics which all seemed to feature The Adventures of Martin Miggs, the Mad Muggle. (35)
I point these out because they're examples of native or near-native wizarding culture, something we don't see much of.

I really wonder what goes on in Ron's comic books.

[Ron] raised the gnome above his head ('Gerroff me!') and started to swing it in great circles like a lasso. Seeing the shocked look on Harry's face, Ron added, 'It doesn't hurt them -- you've just got to make them really dizzy so they can't find their way back to the gnomeholes.' (33)
Somewhere between this and the Puffskein incident, Harry loses a bit of his compassion for small animals.

The de-gnoming sequence is a bit tedious, isn't it? Besides introducing Lockhart, it doesn't accomplish much. Also, I kept thinking of that part of the CoS video game.

[Arthur:] 'There was some pretty nasty stuff that wasn't my department, though. Mortlake was taken away for questioning about some extremely odd ferrets, but that's the Committee on Experimental Charms, thank goodness...' (34)
It's always ferrets.

'Why would anyone bother making door-keys shrink?' said George.
'Just Muggle-baiting,' sighed Mr Weasley. 'Sell them a key that keeps shrinking to nothing so they can never find it when they need it...'
(34)
This and the title of Ron's comic books seem a tad sinister when taken in the context of the larger themes introduced in CoS. This is the first time the concept of "Muggle-baiting" is put to us, presented as a joke and taken lightly.

I wrote the above paragraph on another computer, and when I came back, [livejournal.com profile] arclevel had left this comment in Chapter 1:

"Additionally, I believe late(?) in GoF, there's a scene where Harry notices Molly talking to Ginny and Hermione about love potions she used to make. It's a tiny mention, but I think it's important. Love potions combine various themes and motifs -- binding, romance (yes, the order is deliberate), chaos to some extent, removal/imposition of will, and power. Moreover, they're among the the things lightly and casually used or mentioned by the good/neutral guys which send chills through me.

And to bring this back to CoS, they're first mentioned here, by Lockhart. Are memory charms (which fit into every category above except romance) also introduced here, or are they first mentioned in SS? In any case, both are associated with Lockhart in this book. Perhaps we need to watch Gilderoy for more of the darker aspects of wizarding society, presented lightly -- certainly issues of celebrity and popular opinion come into play here."


'Arthur Weasley, you made sure there was a loophole when you wrote that law!' shouted Mrs Weasley. 'Just so you could carry on tinkering with all that Muggle rubbish in your shed![...]' (34)
You wouldn't think Arthur could draft legislation in his capacity as an investigator. Maybe he had a different position in the Ministry before this.


Phew. Past re-read posts are here.

Date: 2004-10-06 03:27 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] serriadh.livejournal.com
On the topic of superabundance: is there evidence that Molly Weasley 'overfeeds' all her children, or is this special attention that Harry receives?

Also, this reminded of something I was thinking about the other day - where does food come from in the WW? The Weasleys are quite obviously poor, and cannot afford new clothes, yet they appear to have loads of food. Is there a difference in provenance of these things, or is Molly prioritising food over everything else?

Date: 2004-10-07 01:26 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dphearson.livejournal.com
I think that it is more a theme for a child being slowly intergrated in this world- when people are kind, they are really, really kind, when they are nasty they are exceptionally so. However, this abundance is slowly being shown to be an...illusion, somethig else that WW seems to have in abundance.

Date: 2004-10-06 06:34 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] slinkhard.livejournal.com
You wouldn't think Arthur could draft legislation in his capacity as an investigator. Maybe he had a different position in the Ministry before this.

He appears to be still doing it, what with Lucius' mention of his new 'Muggle Protection Act' later in this book.

You always get more of everything in the wizarding world -- particularly evident when food is mentioned.

And of course, food is very much connected with love.
Petunia overfeeds Dudley and withholds food from Harry; Dumbledore almost bribes him with compliments and sweets; Molly showers him with affection as well as food, to the point of overdoing it; Ron and Hermione send Harry food to let him know they're thinking of him; Fred and George's food, like their friendship, can't quite be taken at face value.
Ron feels he lacks his mother's attention as demonstrated by her always forgetting his food preferences; Malfoy's parents shower him with material objects and a regular 'supply of sweets and cakes from home'; Crabbe, Goyle and Dudley's love for food is used to manipulate them...

Date: 2004-10-06 08:47 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] serriadh.livejournal.com
You wouldn't think Arthur could draft legislation in his capacity as an investigator. Maybe he had a different position in the Ministry before this.

Is this the first time we see the concept of wizarding law? As many of the LJ lawyer fen have mentioned, the legal system of the WW leaves much to be desired. The fact that someone is (IMO) fairly obviously tampering with laws he writes to suit his own convenience and yet nothing is really done about it speaks volumes. Of course, later we see Lucius' position as someone who appears to have bribed his way with Fudge and the WW legal and governmental system.

Date: 2004-10-06 08:52 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] slinkhard.livejournal.com
The fact that someone is (IMO) fairly obviously tampering with laws he writes to suit his own convenience and yet nothing is really done about it speaks volumes.

Yes, the implication that Arthur's only fault in his career is being too fond of Muggles in the eyes of his pureblooded bosses is another nice example of the whitewashing of the 'good' side, considering his hypocrisy: he works in law enforcement and both breaks the laws and writes them specifically for his own interests.
Or as his children put it: "If he raided our house, he'd have to arrest himself."

There a couple of essays exploring this further here:

http://www.livejournal.com/users/sistermagpie/17697.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/ataniell93/271201.html

Date: 2004-10-06 10:04 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] neotoma.livejournal.com
Frankly, I don't think the Wizarding World has the idea that it *is* unethical to be judge, jury and executioner.

Arthur Weasley's habit of writing laws to suit himself and ordering raids to suit his own prejudices. For example, the Malfoys might have Dark artifacts chock-a-block in their home, but isn't Arthur in charge of the Misuse of *Muggle* Artifacts? Are we really supposed to believe that the Malfoys have *Muggle* things it their home?

Date: 2004-10-07 04:11 pm (UTC)
pauraque: patterned brown and white bird flying on a pale blue background (Default)
From: [personal profile] pauraque
I think you're spot-on. Arthur, having been brought up in the essentially amoral wizarding world, doesn't see what's wrong in getting away with things like.

Date: 2004-10-06 05:42 pm (UTC)
ext_6531: (Cowboy Bebop!)
From: [identity profile] lizbee.livejournal.com
You wouldn't think Arthur could draft legislation in his capacity as an investigator. Maybe he had a different position in the Ministry before this.

I was thinking about this recently. Perhaps what Arthur writes are really policy proposals, which are then introduced into the Wizengamot for consideration as legislation -- presumably by Dumbledore, or some other powerful individual who could be considered Arthur's patron. [livejournal.com profile] pharnabazus has some interesting ideas about patronage in the wizarding world.

Date: 2004-10-11 11:36 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] neotoma.livejournal.com
[livejournal.com profile] lexin, who does work for a real-life Ministry, said recently that how Arthur works is exactly *wrong*. So either JKR is playing fast and loose, or the Wizarding World doesn't have the separation of powers that the Muggles do...

Date: 2004-10-11 02:43 pm (UTC)
ext_6531: (Default)
From: [identity profile] lizbee.livejournal.com
...the Wizarding World doesn't have the separation of powers that the Muggles do...

I've always assumed this was the case.

Date: 2004-10-06 06:20 pm (UTC)
ext_1468: (.fag)
From: [identity profile] grapefruitzzz.livejournal.com
It's a minor point, but it always cracks me up when she uses "dung" instead of "crap" just to get round the censors. Especially the "Eat dung!" later.

Date: 2004-10-07 03:47 pm (UTC)
pauraque: patterned brown and white bird flying on a pale blue background (Default)
From: [personal profile] pauraque
What makes you think that's the reason? Is 'crap' a worse word in Britain than in the US?
(deleted comment)

Date: 2004-10-07 03:52 pm (UTC)
pauraque: patterned brown and white bird flying on a pale blue background (Default)
From: [personal profile] pauraque
Yeah, the way the MoM is presented never holds up to much scrutiny. We're asked to see it as an overpowering bureaucracy, but the slipshod way it's run really makes you wonder how it can effectively govern even the simplest thing, much less organize something like the QWC.

Date: 2004-10-11 12:01 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] neotoma.livejournal.com
Frankly, I think Wizards are aping Muggle government institution without understanding how they really work.

It's Cargo Cult Governance, and it's really frightening.

Date: 2004-10-06 10:30 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mersault-lives.livejournal.com
I don't have anything to add to your analysis, I just want to say that I really appreciate what you've done so far. Coincidentally, I just started re-reading CoS, too, and I was thrilled to have extra analysis to mull over. GREAT job, and I might have something to add in the future!
--Maria

Date: 2004-10-07 03:52 pm (UTC)
pauraque: patterned brown and white bird flying on a pale blue background (Default)
From: [personal profile] pauraque
Thanks! I'd be glad to hear any thoughts you have. :)
From: [identity profile] arclevel.livejournal.com
I got quoted, yay!

Given that the Weasleys have never had a house elf, does Fred have any idea what he's talking about? Serious question, in this case. Dobby, obviously, uses a great deal of magic without his owner's permission. We don't see most of the other elves do much magic at all, as far as I can remember. So is Dobby simply some inexplicable exception to the rule, or should it really be, "House elves have strong magic of their own, but they usually use it at their owner's instruction or for their owner's benefit"? I don't really like the idea that Dobby is simply an exception to every rule governing house elf behavior -- personality, yes, behavior possibilities, no.

Molly's comparative treatment of the kids always disturbs me, for a number of reasons. First, I remember that as a kid, nothing is more humiliating than being told off in front of your friends. Now, the boys *have* seriously misbehaved, and Harry's not leaving any time soon, but there are better ways of dealing with them than screaming at them in front of your guest. It's not particularly easy on the guest, either -- Harry gets over it quickly, because the Weasleys are the World's Greatest FamilyTM, but for a moment here, he's really scared of her. And jumping ahead for a minute, allow me to roll my eyes at Arthur's complete lack of an attempt at discipline.

I also wonder about the resentments she's breeding. Of course, the twins like Harry a lot, but remember the sweater scene in SS? Fred says something like, "She obviously puts more effort into it if you're not family." The twins aren't likely to turn this against Harry, but I wonder if on some level it's turning them against Molly. Additionally, this may come into play with Percy; he's rarely in direct "competition" with Harry, but he is in a sense being pushed out of the family while Harry's being accepted into it (gradually pushed out, more than his actual breaking ties).

It seems there's a lot the twins know that Ron doesn't. I'd suggest Ron and Ginny aren't being told because Molly is sheltering them, but I think that applies to the twins, too. Most likely they know because they eavesdrop, not because their parents tell them.

I find the comic books disturbing, partly because I strongly expect they're what passes for *pro-Muggle* in the Wizarding world. The idea that it's his "adventures" makes it sound exactly like the sort of condescending but genial attitude that Arthur has toward Muggles; "mad" strikes me as a supposed term of endearment, combined with the general impression that all Muggles are weird, held even among those characters who like them. I also suspect that Arthur at least introduced Ron to the series.

By puffskein incident, do you mean the notes written in FB? Do we have any idea when those notes were meant to be written? We don't actually get Harry's reaction to that, although it sure doesn't say much for Fred. (Trying to think of other puffskein references in the books, not succeeding.)
pauraque: patterned brown and white bird flying on a pale blue background (Default)
From: [personal profile] pauraque
We don't see most of the other elves do much magic at all, as far as I can remember.

Unless you count the creation/preparation/apparition of food, which seems to be done under the elves' own magical steam. I also expect they use magic for their cleaning duties... I can't imagine them carrying around bottles of WD-40.

Additionally, this may come into play with Percy; he's rarely in direct "competition" with Harry, but he is in a sense being pushed out of the family while Harry's being accepted into it (gradually pushed out, more than his actual breaking ties).

Oh, good observation. It's also interesting that Molly berates the boys for not being more like Percy in this chapter. A kid can't seem to win in that house.

I find the comic books disturbing, partly because I strongly expect they're what passes for *pro-Muggle* in the Wizarding world.

I definitely agree.

I thought there was also a Puffskein-torture reference in GoF, but I don't have the OCR file on this machine.
From: [identity profile] arclevel.livejournal.com
Perhaps you're thinking of the spot where the twins feed a salamander a firecracker?
pauraque: patterned brown and white bird flying on a pale blue background (work)
From: [personal profile] pauraque
I may well be. I'll have to do some checking when I get home.

The Ministry of Magic and Arthur

Date: 2004-10-07 07:45 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] arclevel.livejournal.com
You don't directly mention the raids, but I wanted to bring them up. Is there any system resembling search warrants in this society? I somehow doubt it. Basically, it seems like the procedure is that someone requests a "raid" on the house of someone who they think is doing wrong, or want to raid for whatever personal reason they've got. A group of Ministry investigators (it doesn't seem to be MoMA-specific) then go in, search for anything that might be out of line, and turn it over to the appropriate department. Also, since Arthur's arriving at breakfast, this is all apparently done in the dead of night. Rather mind-boggling. Also, it makes it so incredibly easy to see how all the regulations and laws in OotP got through; Fudge doesn't need to trample over civil rights, because nobody has any to start with.

I get the impression that Arthur is, in fact, still writing the relevant laws. There's no separation of powers or checks and balances in the MoM, so I suspect that most departments write their own relevant regulations, which are probably then ratified by either the Wizengamot or the Minister. Since MoMA is only two people, they have pretty full power over their own laws.

It's frequently suggested that the Muggle stuff Arthur plays with is what he confiscates from these raids. Any evidence if that's true? Even if it isn't, it's certainly not ethical that he is apparently breaking the specific laws his job is to enforce. This is made even less ethical when noting that this is despite the fact that he writes these specific laws, *and* writes them with loopholes for his own enjoyment -- and he still can't actually follow them. He may have never intended that car to *be* flown, but it takes two major trips and is seen by Muggles, and he is responsible.

Yes, certainly Muggle-baiting is introduced with rather joking examples -- in OotP, it's still joking. I definitely give Arthur credit for recognizing this as sinister due to the big picture and attitudes displayed, even though it seems harmless. That's one of his better moments, IMO. If only he could translate this better attitude to actually following his own laws or respecting the Muggles he supposedly cares about.

Re: The Ministry of Magic and Arthur

Date: 2004-10-07 04:08 pm (UTC)
pauraque: patterned brown and white bird flying on a pale blue background (Default)
From: [personal profile] pauraque
Yes, certainly Muggle-baiting is introduced with rather joking examples -- in OotP, it's still joking.

Is it? I was thinking of GoF, where we finally get to see actual Muggle torture, and it certainly isn't presented lightly there.

I think Arthur is a basically good guy who doesn't realize how much he's internalized the mores of wizarding culture. He likes Muggles, but doesn't see that he's condescending to them. He's trying to do right at his job within the system, but doesn't see how very corrupt and unfair that system is.

Re: The Ministry of Magic and Arthur

Date: 2004-10-07 05:09 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] arclevel.livejournal.com
Sorry, I was thinking specifically of the toilets in OotP -- much nastier than keys, but still "funny." I tend to think of the Muggle torture as something qualitatively different, though I agree that it's the same attitude in the end (which, of course, is Arthur's point).

I think Arthur is a good guy by wizarding standards, in many ways. Certainly his condescension toward Muggles is less dangerous than homicidal tendencies toward them. It's not actually helpful to Muggles or Muggle-Wizard relations, though, which he doesn't see. However, while I can see writing self-serving loopholes as a result of following the generally corrupt system (and I definitely agree that's the problem with the raids), I think the ethical issues that come from breaking laws that he wrote and enforces go far beyond a corrupt system in terms of his own character.

Re: The Ministry of Magic and Arthur

Date: 2004-10-07 05:22 pm (UTC)
pauraque: patterned brown and white bird flying on a pale blue background (Default)
From: [personal profile] pauraque
I think this is a sticky area, whether it's worse to work within a corrupt system, or pretend to work within it while actually subverting it!

Arthur can be seen as representative of Harry's general wizarding-world experience. He's superficially nice -- certainly nicer than Harry's Muggle father-figure -- but dangerously ignorant and amoral. It's my pet theory that we'll learn a lot more about Arthur in the coming books, and that this representation may be carried even further.

Re: The Ministry of Magic and Arthur

Date: 2004-10-07 06:25 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] arclevel.livejournal.com
Ooh. I'd never thought of it that way. I like it!

I, too, would like to learn more about Arthur, but then, I'd like to learn more about everyone and everything. Arthur's not really at the top of my priorities. Of course, it'd be great if the last two books were each >1000 pages, and she released extended versions of 1-5 a la LotR films, and she also wrote the MWPP prequel and the Snape prequel and the Weasley prequel and a history text or two... umm... perhaps I should learn to live with disappointment.

Re: The Ministry of Magic and Arthur

Date: 2004-10-08 09:10 am (UTC)
trobadora: (Default)
From: [personal profile] trobadora
He likes Muggles, but doesn't see that he's condescending to them.

He doesn't "get" them at all, nor really tries. (And the Weasleys also never talk about the squib relative who ran away to be an accountant, too.)

Given that Arthur is supposed to be so interested in Muggles and their artefacts, it is uttlery baffling to me that he cannot even manage to correctly pronounce a basic word like "electricity." In some ways he reminds me of the type of HP "fan" consistently misspelling the names of the characters s/he is apparently to be a fan of. "Hermoine," anyone?

Re: The Ministry of Magic and Arthur

Date: 2004-10-09 04:50 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nakedcelt.livejournal.com
Basically, it seems like the procedure is that someone requests a "raid" on the house of someone who they think is doing wrong, or want to raid for whatever personal reason they've got.

I imagine Voldemort's earlier reign of terror gave contemporary Ministerial officials (Crouch, perhaps?) the pretext they needed to draft a Patriot Act equivalent.

Re: The Ministry of Magic and Arthur

Date: 2004-10-09 04:53 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nakedcelt.livejournal.com
Oh, and —

...[Arthur] writes these specific laws, *and* writes them with loopholes for his own enjoyment...

Well, that's what Molly says when she's shouting at him about it. It's entirely possible she's being unfair.

Date: 2004-10-07 02:00 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sedesdraconis.livejournal.com
I put up my thoughts on house-elf sociobiology and domestication.

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