CoS 17

[pauraque_bk]

In Chapter 16, we discussed whether the books encourage rule-breaking, Harry and Ron's intentions in taking Lockhart down to the Chamber, and how the Basilisk has stayed alive.


CoS 17: The Heir of Slytherin

Then, as he drew level with the last pair of pillars, a statue high as the Chamber itself loomed into view, standing against the back wall.
Harry had to crane his neck to look up into the giant face above: it was ancient and monkey-like, with a long thin beard that fell almost to the bottom of the wizard's sweeping stone robes[...] (226)

It's confirmed a bit later that this is indeed Salazar. Monkey-like! Somehow this detail seems to have escaped Founder-fic.

'Well, that's an interesting question,' said Riddle pleasantly. 'And quite a long story[...]' (228)

And there's nothing Tom/V likes better than a loooooong story.

[Tom:] '[...]I suppose the real reason Ginny Weasley's like this is because she opened her heart and spilled all her secrets to an invisible stranger.' (228)

Hm. Another reinforcement of the idea that it's unwise to confide in people.

Riddle laughed, a high, cold laugh that didn't suit him. (228)

chresimos and I have discussed what we think a "high, cold laugh" is (it comes up again in GoF, where V also has a "high, cold voice"), and decided we don't know. It's high, so it's shrill? A hysterical giggle? But cold too? Dunno.

In any case, it seems this is a vocal quirk of Riddle's that pre-dates becoming a Dark Lord. Though, on the other hand, this incarnation of Tom shares a few odd characteristics with V, such as eyes that glow red (231) which you wouldn't think he'd have had at 16.

[Tom imitating Ginny:] '[...]Dear Tom, I can't remember what I did on the night of Hallowe'en, but a cat was attacked and I've got paint all down my front[...]' (229)

Paint, then, not blood.

'Well, you see, Ginny told me all about you, Harry,' said Riddle. 'Your whole fascinating history.' His eyes roved over the lightning scar on Harry's forehead, and his expression grew hungrier. (229)

Yeah, this makes sense. The diary was made before V's disintegration, obviously, so he didn't know about Harry until Ginny brought him up.

'[...]On the one hand, Tom Riddle, poor but brilliant, parentless but so brave, school Prefect, model student[...]' (229-230)

Just as good at manipulating adults as Harry is!

'[...]on the other hand, big, blundering Hagrid, in trouble every other week, trying to raise werewolf cubs under his bed[...]' (230)

Beg your pardon? Werewolf cubs. If anything, this'd have to be a figure of speech.

'Well, [Dumbledore] certainly kept an annoyingly close watch on me after Hagrid was expelled,' said Riddle carelessly. 'I knew it wouldn't be safe to open the Chamber again while I was still at school. But I wasn't going to waste those long years I'd spent searching for it. I decided to leave behind a diary, preserving my sixteen-year-old self in its pages, so that one day, with luck, I would be able to lead another in my footsteps, and finish Salazar Slytherin's noble work.' (230)

Uh-huh. But now, "killing Mudbloods doesn't matter to [him] anymore" (230), all he wants to do is kill Harry, which I guess would explain why he hasn't actually... er, killed anyone. Perhaps it makes sense... he doesn't want Harry to get in the way of his future self returning to power.

I AM LORD VOLDEMORT
'You see?' he whispered. 'It was a name I was already using at Hogwarts, to my most intimate friends only, of course[...]' (231)

Random Slytherin: Fancy a fly around the pitch, Riddle?
Tom: *righteously enraged* I keep telling you, call me by my proper name!
R.S.: *puzzled* But that is your name...
Tom: *pounding fists* No! LORD VOLDEMORT!
R.S.: ...Uh-huh. Okay, Tommy, catch you later.
Tom: *angst*

'Twice -- in your past, in my future -- we have met. And twice I failed to kill you[...]' (233)

They have indeed met twice, but... huh? If Tom's trying to say something significant here, I can't penetrate its meaning.

Riddle opened his mouth and hissed -- but Harry understood what he was saying. (234)

In Chapter 16, we discussed how little JKR knows about snakes. She has a snake wink in PS/SS (snakes don't have eyelids), refers to a green shed snakeskin (they're white-to-brownish), and invents a spoken snake language when snakes can't hear! It would have been just as easy to make it a telepathic language and drop the references to it sounding like hissing, but apparently neither she nor her editor knew any better.

The movie also has Harry distract the Basilisk with the clatter of a thrown pebble, which is just... *facepalm* Even if the Basilisk had felt the vibration, Harry was right in front of its face; as Tom quite rightly points out, it can easily smell him.

A gleaming silver sword had appeared inside the Hat, its handle glittering with rubies the size of eggs. (235)

idlerat has previously pointed out the phallic imagery there.

Harry could hear Lockhart dangling below him, saying, 'Amazing! Amazing! This is just like magic!' (239)

Not to make too much of a throwaway gag, but does this suggest to anyone else that Lockhart was Muggle-born? If he'd been raised in a magical environment, he never would have had the concept in his mind that something could be "just like magic" without in fact being magic, so it would be impossible for him to "forget" back to that point.


Past re-read posts are here. Just one more chapter left.

Comments

[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

'No lasting damage' is also offered as a reassurance of Mr. Roberts' (the camp owner in GoF) condition, when he's been memory charmed so many times he waves off the Weasley party with 'Merry Christmas.'
And of course, there was no damage done to the wizards burnt in the Middle Ages, according to PoA (and presumably to anyone who may have looked like a witch but wasn't lucky enough to have a wand capable of extinguishing flames?)
"No harm, no foul" seems to be JKR's motto, or at least the motto of the WW.

[strangemuses.livejournal.com]

Yeah, let's talk about those memory charms for a minute. Lockhart's victims seem to have suffered from permanent damage. Lockhart himself certainly has.

Why should we believe that Mr. Roberts will just be okay after a little while? I don't buy it. If Lockhart is only getting back basic memory functioning as a result of ongoing care at St. Mungo's, what hope is there for that poor Muggle? I think that JKR is hiding or downplaying the scarier aspects of Wizards vs. Muggles here, because she simply doesn't want to deal with it. It breaks her story too much to let us see that wizards and witches really are a danger to Muggles.

Likewise with Ginny, I have absolutely no reason to believe that Ginny is perfectly fine after her soul-mingling encounter with Tom Riddle. In fact, given the mounting evidence that Harry has some sort of a permanent mental link of some sort with Voldemort, I have have to assume that the same sort of link exists with Ginny.

[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

And of course, Arthur would have excellent reasons to mislead people, should Mr. Roberts be permanently damaged; considering that he and his co-workers are doing the charming and the Muggleborn accompanying him is fairly vocal about how victimised she and other non-pure blooded wizards are.

I think that JKR is hiding or downplaying the scarier aspects of Wizards vs. Muggles here, because she simply doesn't want to deal with it. It breaks her story too much to let us see that wizards and witches really are a danger to Muggles.

Indeed. It might appear as if the nasty characters have a point and more complex motivations than 'they're just Evil'. *gasp*
But then why include details like Mr. Roberts or the PoA history text at all?
Unless it's meant for comedy relief, in which case my suspicions that JKR's and my senses of humour differ radically are confirmed.

[strangemuses.livejournal.com]

I don't know the answer to your question. We are dealing with a WIP that is getting increasingly darker and more 'mature' with each new book. It is possible that by book 7, Harry will understand how complex and dangerous the wizard society really is. It's equally possible that he won't, and that JKR will continue to downplay the danger and the basic conflicts between the wizard and muggle world. I just don't know.

Speaking only for myself, I was offended by her "cute" comments that "real" witches weren't hurt during the mass witch burnings. Thousands and perhaps millions of people were horrifyingly put to death all through Europe and in the colonies (where witches were hung, not burned). Dismissing all of that real suffering in order to make her children's book series appear to be more cuddly was wrong, IMO. JKR wants to separate "her" witches from the real history of Eurpopean witchcraft when it is convenient for her. That's her right of course, but I still think that she's cheating.

[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

That's the problem with these books - it's unclear more than halfway through which direction JKR is planning on taking them.
Which is excellent plotting if it's intentional (ajhalluk describes the HP books as being closer to the mystery genre than fantasy) but it does mean the success of the narrative as a whole is becoming increasingly dependent on it's ending. I'm not one of those people who think that certain plots have to occur or certain characters have to do something in order for the books to turn out 'right' - eg. OMG, if Draco/Dudley/Peter aren't developed, I'll never read another word!111 but there are certain logical and moral problems within the text (in my view. A million people and JKR probably disagree, and that's their prerogative!) and either JKR recognises this and it's intentional, or she doesn't; and to me this makes the difference between her work deserving it's reputation as a subtle, thoughtprovoking series and um...not.

I didn't like the part about the witchburnings. It smacks of whitewashing both within the text and to the unseen audience and yes, it's cutesy and tacky. (But then I think I was the only person who was even slightly disturbed by her comparing the fictional Death Eaters to Nazis, least of all because it's breaking Godwin's law; and one could make a comparison between the two - that JKR's willing to make a point about the seriousness of the issues in her books by drawing parallels to real life tragedies, but abandons historical accuracy when it reflects badly on her plot and the characters she wants to convey postively.)

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

JKR's willing to make a point about the seriousness of the issues in her books by drawing parallels to real life tragedies, but abandons historical accuracy when it reflects badly on her plot and the characters she wants to convey postively.)

And frankly, if you really think about it, how does this make her characters look better? The WW is secret from Muggles for some reason, and they go to the length of memory charming people regularly to keep it that way, when they're not driving Muggles crazy because they don't know what's happening to their keys or whatever. I think one of the reasons the dreaded "DE-PoV-interested fans" have popped up is in trying to make this work within a wider world. We know how violent our society has been towards witchcraft--these very books have been banned for their subject matter. So to turn around and say, "Oh, that? The burnings and hangings and such? No, wizards have no connection to that at all. They thought it was funny watching Muggles burn each other while they got tickled."

Okaaaayyyy...so then why the secrecy? I remember talking to someone once on FAP, I think, about wizard medicine (I think it somehow came from one of those werewolf/AIDS parallels). Anyway, I was on the side of people who claimed wizard medicine did not work on Muggles and that they had different diseases, while others thought they'd just found cures for diseases they weren't sharing with us. The person's justification of Muggleborns, for instance, witholding the cure for AIDS from their families was that if Muggles knew about magic they'd want to use it for everything (the way wizards do in canon??!) so it should be kept secret from them.

If that's the reason behind the secrecy--not any threat but just a superior attitude (the kind Arthur Weasley and even Hermione display towards Muggles) then memory charms and things become even more sinister.

[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

I presume that yeah, things like Skelegro wouldn't work, because that's presumably potion-based - so a lovespell potion, for example, would only work on a wizard.
But then again, spells are effective on Muggles, so who knows?

The person's justification of Muggleborns, for instance, witholding the cure for AIDS from their families was that if Muggles knew about magic they'd want to use it for everything (the way wizards do in canon??!) so it should be kept secret from them.

Didn't Hagrid say something in PS about this? I wouldn't say that they're in the right, but that does appear to be their attitude. *digs*

?But what does a Ministry of Magic do??
?Well, their main job is to keep it from the Muggles that there?s still witches an? wizards up an? down the country.?
?Why??
?Why? Blimey, Harry, everyone?d be wantin? magic solutions to their problems. Nah, we?re best left alone.?

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that was exactly the quote the person was using...and it's one thing where Hagrid says it as a sort of, "Just go along with this superficial idea," but to start applying it to serious situations (or using it as a reason for hurting Muggles) gets you into some seriously bad territory, particularly when you're pretending to write a book that's so sensitive about bigotry and gets sarcastic about the idea of wizards considering themselves better than others.

It just makes no sense that Potion-based magic could work, but as you say, spells do. In fact, I think that was the very quicksand we got ourselves into in the thread. Presumably JKR would want wizard poisons to work on Muggles so that Lucius is a baddie if he has them, but she can't honestly be claiming that crushed bat wings will cure Muggle rheumatism, right? And if Potions can cure this stuff then gee, are the Muggleborns really okay with going home to sit with their family members dying of cancer without offering them any, you know, medicine that might actually work.

[arclevel.livejournal.com]

I'm of the opinion that potions become magical in the preparation. That is, if a Muggle or Squib followed a potion recipe exactly, they'd wind up with rather nasty sludge that does nothing (though may be toxic). However, once the potion is prepared, it will work on whatever it's applied to.

[arclevel.livejournal.com]

I tend to think that wizards don't generally suffer the sort of illnesses that Muggles do. That said, I think they could develop cures for most of them very quickly, or already have potions available that would be effective in treating many of them. The wizarding attitude toward the Muggle world is that it's Not Our Problem.

As for these attitudes, most obvious in the memory charms and the witch burning comments, I have to say I like them. Not because I find them funny or don't have any moral issues with them; quite the opposite. I think the wizarding world is far more interesting (though much less pleasant) when you have all this evidence of hypocrisy and lack of regard for Muggles as human beings even from those who ardently oppose anti-Muggle groups. Both the Death Eaters and the "light" side are far more interesting from that perspective.

That's probably nothing to do with why JKR put it in there, and Harry may never realize it, but I think it makes the series more interesting nonetheless. I'll be thrilled if Harry does eventually pick up on it enough to be uneasy, at the very least (though not so much if it's a brief twinge, then he forgets about it). OTOH, if Harry *doesn't* pick up on it, that doesn't actually mean that JKR didn't put it in there to add moral depth or make the wizarding world more complicated. Plenty of authors add layers that their main characters never pick up on, and it's a very consistent attitude, suggesting it's intentional, even if we aren't supposed to look at it so carefully or take it so seriously.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Oh, I definitely agree it makes the series more interesing--and imagine how insufferable it would be if everybody actually lived up to the image they have of themselves as being open-minded!:-)

I think where it gets into more trouble is (as usual) what you do with Muggleborns. It makes perfect sense for wizards to say, even if they could cure all Muggle diseases, "Not our problem." But how does that work when you've got "Muggles" (which Muggleborns are in many ways) saying the same things? Do none of them feel strongly enough about their own families that they would want to help them? That, to me, sounds like exactly the sort of area where in a realistic situation there would be a big breakdown. On the one hand Hagrid is right in saying wizards would open themselves up to trouble if Muggles knew they existed, but otoh you've got this ongoing exchange program with people like Hermione.

I'm not sure where I ultimately stand on the Potions issue. Stitches didn't seem to work too well on Arthur even though one would think they should work just the same on Wizards as on Muggles, since both have skin etc. So I could believe that Potions might all have bad effects on Muggles.

[arclevel.livejournal.com]

I thought it was just the venom that reacted badly with Arthur's stitches. Or that there wasn't even a reaction, but it just didn't work. That would require the bandages to be changed, and I think Molly would be nearly as upset. I think that if Arthur had merely fallen off a broom and split his head open, stitches would have worked. Of course, I have no real basis for this (and will eventually get around to a major post on wizards, Muggles, and health, but not soon), but it's my theory, anyway.

[arclevel.livejournal.com]

I forgot to respond to the other half. I agree with you that Muggle-born kids should be more bothered than they apparently are. We don't see Hermione doing this directly, that I've noticed, but the extent to which she's assimilated is really quite creepy. I think I really first noticed it when she was taking Muggle Studies, then again in GoF when she talks about "Muggle substitutes for magic." She seems to have forgotten that she used to be one of them. Harry has, too, but he has no positive connections to the Muggle world, so it's less surprising. These are the only Muggle-raised kids we know well enough to know about this. I like to think some do care.

I wonder what Mr. Finnegan thinks of the Wizarding World. Seamus tends to act more like a pureblood than a Muggle-born, which suggests his upbringing had very little "Muggle" to it. Was Mr. Finnegan expected to assimilate, too?

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I think it's just not really something the series is really concentrating on (the stitches idea sounds very logical to me too, that if Arthur cut his head normally presumably stitches would work--in fact, fanon often assumes that there are times where wizards "have to do it the Muggle way, which is very uncanonical but probably shows how Muggleborns really would think!).

I've just recently noticed how in OotP Hermione asks to borrow Hedwig to tell her parents about being prefect because that's "something they can understand." It's kind of chilling how she talks about her parents like mentally challenged children, and reminds you that she's been living with the Weasleys for most of the summer, it seems. Plus when she had a chance to get a pet she didn't get an owl but a cat, so she doesn't even have the kind of access to communication that Harry and Ron have!

[arclevel.livejournal.com]

I'd never really looked at that scene like that, but it does fit into that pattern, doesn't it? I think I see the "something they can understand" less as, "My parents are such morons," and more as, "My parents don't get my world." Both are common teenage attitudes, but the first is not the sort you expect from Hermione. The second, OTOH, makes sense because her parents really don't live in the same world as she does. However, I think most kids (who got along with their folks) would build a bridge to some extent, if only so that their parents *could* understand their achievements. I think this comment indicates that Hermione assumes her parents won't understand anything from the magical world, and in fact they don't, but I think they don't because she doesn't really talk to them about it.

Yeah, it's disturbing that she spends all of that summer away from home. Additionally, I don't think she's been home for Christmas since SS, has she? Now, I have an unusually good relationship with my mom, but I still can't imagine not going home for Christmas four years in a row as a teenager. I've seen people take this as evidence that the Grangers fall in with all the other sorry parents we see in canon, but I don't think we've got any evidence of this. I think the problem here is Hermione, and I feel terribly sorry for her parents.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I'm sure that is how she meant it--that it's not magical. But still, I just get the same feeling you do, that this has nothing to do with her parents and everything to do with Hermione deciding to cut herself off. We hear later from Dean, I think, that he doesn't let his parents know what's going on in the WW either. Hermione seems to almost spend less time at home than Harry does. I'd feel terrible if I were the Grangers, myself, particularly since it's not even like she stays at school with her friends; she stays with another family! It's not even just a case of worrying whether she's in danger; part of her feeling that they "don't understand" seems to give her the idea that anything her parents might say about her own behavior is useless. Again, that is a normal teenaged attitude, but it's strange coming from Hermione, particularly since other kids in the WW are actually more bound up with their families. The WW is a very family-oriented place.

[arclevel.livejournal.com]

I think what Dean said was specifically more to do with not telling his parents about Cedric's death. I can see that, even if he tells his parents some things about his school life. Why bother them with tales of murder? (Though if it were me, I think I'd tell. But that's me.)

I agree about Hermione. I expect that when she's at home, she's a good little girl and obeys the rules. But I think if they had much to say about her actions at school or involving the war (including where she spends her summer), I think she'd be respectful and then ignore anything she didn't agree with because they don't understand what's at stake (so she feels).

A lot of this really is fairly normal teenage attitudes, but when you combine that with Hermione's certainty that she knows absolutely everything and her insistence on being fully witch (and thus abandoning her Muggle roots) I think she feels a stronger justification for ignoring her folks than most teens have, and has more options for actively ignoring them without massive fights. (Of course, I'm mostly speculating here, but still, it seems likely.)

[strangemuses.livejournal.com]

Ajhalluk is correct in describing these books as mysteries rather than fantasies. PoA might as well have been called Nancy Drew and the Shrieking Shack! The plots are structured as mysteries. The manner in which JKR withholds vital clues from us is straight out of "How To Write a Mystery," by Who Dunnit.

I wouldn't mind the comparison of Death Eaters to Nazis if JKR fleshed out their motivation more clearly. Nazis were horrifying, but they weren't (all) whip-cracking, moustache-twirling cartoon villains. There was a lot more to the Nazi party than just elitist racial purity. Numerous economic, social, historical, and cultural forces were at play. Right now, aside from the racial purity angle, I'm not sure why anyone would become a DE. What do they get out of it, aside from their creepy tattoo?

[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

Yes, it seems JKR's study of the pre-war Germany could do with a brushup if she believes her story reflects it - I'm fairly sure any political group has more complex motivations than 'OMG we r so liek evil!' (Even Republicans. *ducks*)