He cleans! He writes! He talks about Grawp!

[pauraque_bk]

Productive today. I steam-cleaned my carpet, wrote 1000 words of James/Sirius smut, and gave my snake a bath. I'm proud of me. (Speaking of the snake, I did take her to the vet, and she's fine now. Phew.)


On another note, _hannelore and I were just talking about OotP (which I still haven't re-read yet), and I mentioned that Grawp always struck me as not possessing a human level of intelligence. I found that sort of disturbing, actually, since it puts Hagrid's father in the position of taking advantage of a lower being.

_hannelore rightly pointed out that the giants must have a sophisticated enough communication system to discuss wartime alliances... And that puzzled me, because when Hagrid brings Grawp back, they don't converse in Giantish or anything of that nature, do they? It's presented as though Grawp has no language. When Hagrid and Maxime approached them, what did they say? The way Grawp is dealt with is completely different from what we're shown of intelligent non-humans like centaurs and house elves.

Is there really a contradiction here, or am I missing something? Are the giants fully sentient, or not?

Comments

[iibnf.livejournal.com]

How would Hagrid learn to speak Giantish, though? His mother left, and if all the people had been driven from the country, I doubt anyone would be left who'd teach him.

I got the impression they were sentient, in a Lord of the Flies kind of way.

[pauraque]

So, it was your impression that the giants have a language, but Hagrid just doesn't speak it? I guess we don't know if Maxime does or not.

One of the reasons it bugged me that Grawp seemed to be presented that way was that Hagrid and Maxime obviously do have human intelligence.

[iibnf.livejournal.com]

It wasn't my impression until you made me think about it, no.

Another way to look at it, is the displaced persons concept. I just made that up.

When you see groups of displaced people, say those who have been driven from their homes in the current Sudan genocide attempt, you see huge groups of people with no homes, no schools, little surviving culture, drinking pooh water and getting dysentry etc, being slaughtered and slaughtering each other. It's hard to see them as the same as our selves (which is one reason why the west so easily turns a blind eye), so I wonder if that's somewhat the state of the giants? They were killed enmasse, driven from their homes, and have taken their ongoing civil wars to their current camps, where they continue on with no cultural structure or education systems, killing and being killed. The cultural break down of the genocide waged against them would bring a cycle of poverty and violence that would be very destructive to any civilisation they may have.

Who knows what they are like when left alone in their own culture?

[tekalynn.livejournal.com]

Damn. Now THAT'S a hypothesis that makes sense. We're also seeing their culture through Hagrid's biased view, so that alters things as well.

[dphearson.livejournal.com]

*stares*

Yes, that really is a great theory. especially if these beings, the Giants, have been made to move many time sover many, many years. and now I am thinking of Tinkers and Romany.

[atalantapendrag.livejournal.com]

I'm so glad to hear your snake is doing well!

[pauraque]

Yeah, she'll be fine. She had one egg stuck, and the vet was able to extract it non-surgically, so that was good. She seems to be good as new. :)

[alchemia.livejournal.com]

good to hear about your snake. we had that hapen to a chicken once.

On Grawp, I had the impression that he was developmentally delayed in some way, which in addition to his size could have contrbuted to his being abandoned (an abandonment further leadingto his being uneducated/socialised, aggrivating the disability)

[vvvexation.livejournal.com]

Heck, maybe it's related to his size.

[exbentley]

Yeah, I got the impression Hagrid took him in because he was outcast by his fellow giants for not being too smart, and Harry assumed Hagrid had immediately relegated him to the status of 'dangerous animal that just needs love and attention' rather than 'my mentally deficient half-brother'.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Hagrid tells Harry exactly why he took Grawp away from the giants: because 'they were bullyin' him because he's small.' His brains don't come into it. Then he has to tie him up because he kept wanting to go back to the giants, and "doesn't know his own strength."

The impression that he's mentally deficient seems, imo, to come much more from Hagrid than from Harry. Harry assumes he's a violent giant, possibly perfectly intelligent by giant standards. Hagrid claims violent is "too harsh" a word because Grawp just "doesn't know his own strength" (which would imply that he's stupid).

[bardsmaid.livejournal.com]

Really glad to hear that your snake is okay.

[stellahobbit.livejournal.com]

Are the giants fully sentient, or not?

If we taken sentient to mean self-aware, then I'd say yes. Grawp seems to be able to see himself as a seperate entity, recognise Hagrid, and recognises his need for Hagrid (when he was speaking to Hermione).

Interesting that you bought up the communication or lack of between Grawp and Hagrid. I've always assumed that the majority of Grawp's language consists of grunts and sign language. In one way you could compare that to a family of apes - elaborate non-verbal communication and a heirarchical structure. Plus the ability to depose the old 'head of the clan' and work around a new one.

iibf bought up a good point - how would Hagrid have the ability to be fluent in Giantish? Even though his mother left him at an early age, perhaps his father passed on some Giant knowledge and provided access to other members of that species. Hagrid is aware of his heritage and has the ability to recognise the similarites between him and Madame Olympe. Hagrid is certainly sentient.

[serriadh.livejournal.com]

If the giants speak Giantish, surely either Hagrid or Maxime should ideally have been able to speak it so that they could communicate well when on their 'mission' for Dumbledore? Obviously the giants might/would speak 'English', which Maxime and Hagrid sort-of speak ;), but diplomats should really know some of the 'other' language as well.

Perhaps also there is the fact that half-bred giants are looked-down upon (to say the least) in mainstream wizarding culture, and would therefore suppress any knowledge of giantish culture that they had.

[stellahobbit.livejournal.com]

Perhaps also there is the fact that half-bred giants are looked-down upon (to say the least) in mainstream wizarding culture, and would therefore suppress any knowledge of giantish culture that they had.

I'd say that most none human species are looked down by wizarding culture, even relatively benign ones such as centuars. No doubt full-blooded giants also look down at their half-bred relatives. Hagrid can't win either way ;-)

[stellahobbit.livejournal.com]

Most non-human species, I mean *grimace*

[t0ra-chan.livejournal.com]

Hagrid and Maxime both don't speak the giant language. They also seem pretty clueless about giant behavior, that's why Dumbledore tells them what to do (who seems to know everything about any non-human magical being). It's kind of said that they know so little about their own heritage.

As for Grawp, he seems kind of mentally slow, even for a giant. Of course Hagrid is not helping by basically treating him like some animal and not another sentient being.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_hannelore/]

If the giants do indeed speak another language, how is Walden Macnair able to get on so well with them? Unless his "talk" with the head giant is just a lot of leering, nudging and gift-exchanging. I wanted to answer this a bit more coherently, but I might actually have to read that dreaded chapter again.

_{Grawp/Macnair hurt-comfort. "I know you miss your fellow giants, little dude. Heh-heh, heh-heh."}

[shaychana.livejournal.com]

Grawp/Macnair hurt-comfort. "I know you miss your fellow giants, little dude. Heh-heh, heh-heh."

*dies* i think i'd want to read a fic like that.

to answer pauraque's original question: is it possible that it's simply because grawp is still a child by giant standards? i have the impression that the giants speak their own language and some of them know some english, but that might be the fanonical imprinting i've had from fic-reading, as i obsessively hunt out stories about the non-human species.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Giants and Grawp seem like two different things to me. The giants are like natives out of a 19th century story or a joke on that sort of thing. They're violent, but they have a leader, they're fascinated by technology (magical technology). But a few of them are "good ones" who naturally like Dumbledore's ideas and want to overthrow their leader and change their society.

Grawp, by contrast, is like a large, mentally deficient adult that Hagrid treats like one of his less-tamed pets.

[arclevel.livejournal.com]

I'm pretty sure there is a Giantish, but it may be very different from English (or any other human languages). This could be partly due to physiological differences (in larynx, tongue musculature and innervation, etc), or simply a very different evolution of the language. I'd guess primarily the latter based on Hagrid's and Madame Maxime's ability to comfortably speak English -- with accents, but very human accents. OTOH, half-giants are basically portrayed as overly large humans, whereas giants are physically very different. In any case, the giants not only communicate amongst themselves enough to understand the two sides of the war and what the gifts are and mean, but also provide translators for the humans; we have no idea how well they can speak English, but we know that some do. We've never seen or heard of a human speaking Giantish; it's entirely possible that none can (though Dumbledore and Barty Crouch, Sr probably can/could).

I would consider Grawp fully sentient. Not particularly intelligent, probably even among giants, but I think he's fully aware of who people are, who he is, and what his situation is. Also, he does eventually pick up a bit of English, and I really can't imagine that Hagrid is the world's greatest ESL teacher. Of course, noting this about Grawp makes Hagrid's treatment of him that much more hideous. Hagrid takes a sentient being, specifically his own brother, and kidnaps him, drags him across countries against his will, ties him up with no contact except himself, and generally treats him like a wild animal. Are there people who actually *doubt* that Hagrid's moral compass isn't always pointing north?

As to rereads, I started rereading the series nearly a couple weeks ago and finally finished SS today. Definitely time to pick up the pace and move up the priority for HP canon.

[subliculous.livejournal.com]

she-duck! <3

[fer-de-lance.livejournal.com]

...Do we ever hear an age for Grawp? Or learn anything about how giants age?

Because "mentally deficient" is a lot like "very young" when talking about nonhuman creatures. Think of the usual comparison: an 80-year-old elf is barely out of her teens, by usual fantasy-novel reckoning, and is going to behave like a teenager. Perhaps giants, being so large, take longer to develop? If Grawp is at a stage comparable to the one where most human children are just learning language or have just really grasped language, and then he's been transplanted into an entirely new setting with a new language, it would be understandable that he comes across as impaired.

Young children transplanted into situations where they have to learn an entirely new language (think overseas adoption!) are probably about as proficient as Grawp, at first -- perhaps his roaring and violence are his attempts to communicate in his own language, and/or the result of frustration at not being understood combined with being all alone and dependent on one person he doesn't know or trust yet. He's surrounded by strangers and can't make himself understood, while trying to cope with learning an entirely new set of behaviours and words.

...Wow, that was a lot of words for someone who wished Grawp would be kicked to death by angry centaurs all through OOTP. :D