Reactions to reactions.

[pauraque_bk]

Sorry for being so hideously meta, but I want to know this. I've seen people saying they're reluctant to voice their dislike of HBP because almost everyone liked it, and I've seen people saying the exact reverse. I'm sure it has to do with who's on your flist, but... Have a poll! We all like polls, right?

[Poll #537292]

ETA: Comments may contain spoilers.

Comments

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

The two things that seem to be coming up that people hated: ships and Snape. I've seen a LOT of vocal disappointment about the ships (not only which ships come about, but HOW they come about), and of course, the Great Snape Debate rages far and wide. But sadly, the ship thing seems to outweigh it.

Now, granted, almost everyone on my list ships one particular ship that took a bit of a blow (Remus/Sirius), so I kind of expect to see that. And none of us are really thrilled with the way Remus/Tonks played out, because honestly? I've got a LOT of Tonks-lovers on my list that didn't like the way her character evolved. But I'm also pleased to see that a lot of my f-list, while ranting thoroughly, are also happy about a lot of things in the book, especially the Voldie backstory, and that's starting to take precedence on the commentaries (thank God).

Wasn't around post-OotP, but I imagine it's fairly similar!

[gmth.livejournal.com]

I think my f-list has responded far more positively to HBP than they did to OotP. I seem to recall it felt like everyone hated OotP for various and sundry reasons, but this time around it seems like everyone got fired up because of the Snape thing. The fandom as a whole, however, seems to dislike this book a LOT. Or maybe it's just that all I can see is the insanity surrounding the shipping wars. It may take a while for things to cool off before the general consensus is reached.

[nuka-cola.livejournal.com]

"however, seems to dislike this book a LOT. Or maybe it's just that all I can see is the insanity surrounding the shipping wars."

I totally agree, especially with the insanity bit. It's just crazy. And stupid, imo.

[nuka-cola.livejournal.com]

sorry, my keys are sticking. I meant to quote your whole sentence ^_^

[wootsauce.livejournal.com]

It seems like people like it a lot more than OOTP, but that the reaction to OOTP was more passionate and this is more like "well...ok...that wasn't too bad! let's have cookies!"

[layat.livejournal.com]

I agree. This book lost alot of spark. It seemed more of a read a la Dan Brown than OOTP did. OOTP invited lots of passionate arguments, which to me is the sign of a good book.

Before this book, I didn't want the series to end. Now though- the jumping of the shark seems just around the bend.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I can't really tell. I remember feeling like people generally liked OotP, but then later found that there were a sizeable group that didn't. Reaction seemed more positive to HBP, with clear, negative reactions to certain things in it. But now it seems like this book is getting more hate for different reasons.

[aidenfire]

Also, much love for My Fair Lady. *g*

[tesseract-5.livejournal.com]

After OotP, I remember mostly people being indignent about CAPSLOCK!Harry and of course the veil scene with Sirius. No one wanted to believe he was really really really gone.

With HBP, it's all the immature shippers squealing, while the rest of us *grins* are happily discecting Snape and horcrux theory.

[japonicastar.livejournal.com]

I sort of take offense to that last comment saying that people who have a problem with HBP are 'the immature shippers squealing'. See I wouldn't say I'm particularly immature nor a Shipper of any real shape or form. Yet I do still have a problem with HBP.

I remember (sort of) having a major problem with Order, mostly because it was very slow to start and my favourite character died. I have grown through time to like Order, it has some exceptionally amusing parts and Harry being CAPSLOCK didn't bother me because I can understand where the poor lad was coming from.

This new book... Well maybe it's because it's new, and perhaps I haven't read it enough yet, but I can't honestly say I enjoyed it as much as I did, say GOF. I won't go into detail over why I am very much in dislike for this book but I will tell you my opinon on the rest of the fandom.

On the whole I think I've seen more people who like this book then those who don't. There are some great parts in the book, I'll agree with that but I'm personally not in agreement with the hype that I have seen some people on their LJ's say with enthusiasm.

I think that HBP has people disliking it for different reasons than Order; then people complained about the over-use of capslocks and character deaths. This book has far more complaints about characterisation and how JKR has written off Ships when she could have been either far more subtle or left people to take subtext how they liked. 'Thrashing like eels' is not subtle and it has upset a lot of people who didn't want to know the ins and outs of Ron's teenage lovelife. And much, much more I've seen be scathingly talked about.

Personally I didn't like the book much and I think I'm in a minority there. There are some of us, but out of the hundreds of thousands that bought the book? No, I think mostly people liked this one.

[a-t-rain.livejournal.com]

I don't think there's any way to tell, because "the fandom" isn't a single entity -- it's fragmented and compartmentalized a thousand times over, and people generally hang out with people who share their own tastes and opinions.

I liked the book, but not as much as OotP (which is, and continues to be, my favorite of the series). I think this probably puts me in the minority among "the fandom" as a whole, but several people on my f-list have expressed the same sentiment -- no doubt because we clumped together in the first place because we liked certain elements that feature prominently in OotP.

[linaelyn.livejournal.com]

I'd just like to say that at this moment, I, too, am loathing ants with every fiber of my being.

While we were away, the ants came and ATE MY KIDS' PET SILKWORMS IN THEIR COCOONS. That was really low.

[nuka-cola.livejournal.com]

Personally I'm tired of the people who got mad because JKR "destroyed their OTP" or what have you. This is her story - she can tell it however she likes. If she had planned for these characters to get together, then it's her right to stay true to that. She created these characters and has lived with them for longer than any of us. She does know them better than us. They are her babies, as is the story. So if she sees them as being good for each other, or the relationships being important for whatever reason, then of course she's not going to leave it out because she might "offend" people.

I think it's fine to disagree with her opinion or wish that she had done things differently, but to slam JKR? I don't know where these people get off, but Harry Potter is Rowling's baby and the characters are her creation. Fanfiction is fanfiction, not the actual story, and characterisation in fanfiction is not necessarily accurate. I wonder sometimes if people forget that.

Besides, we all know that Remus is bisexual anyway.

*waits to be flamed*

[(Anonymous)]

Not sure that the problem is so much distaste for Remus/Tonks as the fact that people felt blindsided by the revelation. Even in HBP the clues were incredibly subtle, unless they shipped Remus/Tonks I doubt anyone would have seen them for what they were.

Oh and I do have a personal objection to the idea that everyone is going to walk off hand in hand with their future spouse at the end. It seems too fantastic to be real.

[nuka-cola.livejournal.com]

I liked the subtlety because it leaves more to the imagination, which will be excellent for Remus/Tonks fanfiction... and, in the back of my mind, I kept wondering if that's why Rowling did it. I do know she enjoys some of the fanfiction... maybe she wants to see what fic authors will make of her pairing! ;P

I don't know what will happen in the end - I can't really guess, either. Rowling is so cheesy in some ways, but not in others. I would prefer not to see a sickeningly sweet ending, but at the same time I am happy with the pairings. Slash pairings will never be obviously canon anyway. *sigh*

[allzugern.livejournal.com]

I would hardly call it subtlety. We are confronted head on with a Tonks that is so incredibly changed from her introduction in OotP that it makes my head spin. I was hoping that she was under Imperio, or a spy or something, but no, we have love unrequited. Excuse me if I puke.

How insulting is it to women that someone like Tonks, who is extremely talented, and possesses a rare and useful gift, in a time of WAR and NEED, is moping around and allowing Lupin's rejection to RULE her as an Auror?? She is relegated to tasks below what she is capable of, and she fucking mopes through the WHOLE BOOK. WTF?

So at the end of the book she's holding hands with Lupin, and she is all perky and back to her normal magical self BECAUSE SHE GOT THE GUY??? WTF??? Way to go Jo. Lets show young impressionable girls that are reading your books how your life falls apart and your job means nothing--your whole life and the world around you means nothing, without that special guy on your side. Go ahead, let yourself go to pot, forget about those who are relying on you in a time of great danger and need, forget respect for self and ones inner spirit, because you amount to nothing unless that special someone graces you with his attentions.

HBP was the Noah's Arch of the Potter series. Everyone, and I mean just about everyone, had to be all heterosexually paired up -- I mean Pince/Filch? Jesus.

Jo made a huge mistake with the forced ships in this book. For me they practically overshadowed some of the gems in HBP. I hope she steers well clear of them in book seven. If I want to read ships, I can read fanfiction, and believe me, the ff authors do them better justice.

[nuka-cola.livejournal.com]

hmm, well, I disagree with pretty much everything you said, but that's okay. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

One female character, who always struck me as being emotional, letting her heart rule her head does not strike me as being an insult to women. There are afer all a lot of strong female characters in the book who do not behave that way. All characters are different... I don't think it is a question of gender. Ron loses his head over Lavender AND Hermione. Because he's emotional... not because of his gender.

Btw, Pince/Filch was a joke in the book, not an actual pairing written by Rowling.

[allzugern.livejournal.com]

There are afer all a lot of strong female characters in the book who do not behave that way.

There are? Where? McGonagall is the only one I can think of, and, especially in this book, she is barely mentioned and almost cold and distant towards Harry. Where are there other female Aurors or witches present that aren't either evil (Bellatrix, Umbridge) or barely mentioned (Madam Bones). We are only shown details of magical ability in action when it concerns wizards. OotP made Tonks an excpetion, and I was hopeful that her character was going to be one of strength -- she certainly had a good connection and made an impression on Harry. Instead we are presented with an over-emotional, weak, stereo-typical woman.

How one regards the ships in the book, I suppose is a matter of opinion. The blatent lack of women in positive, meaningful roles is fact.

[nuka-cola.livejournal.com]

I think that McGonagall, Mrs. Weasley, Hermione, Angelina Johnson, Lily, Petunia, Luna and Ginny along with the others that you mentioned are all very strong in their own ways- in different ways, since each person is different. Tonks was weak because she was emotional, because the person she loved was living in a situation where he was constantly in danger of being killed, and she had no contact with him.

My impression of Tonks was always of someone young, freespirited and enthusiastic, who didn't hide her feelings and threw herself into her endevours. So her behaviour in HBP didn't strike me as OOC or odd. If someone had a different impression of Tonks then I can see how they would dislike her behaviour in HBP or find it 'forced'. It's just that I didn't, and I could see where she was coming from, her status as an Auror aside.

But to suggest that she should have behaved differently just because her character is female and therefore Rowling should make her act more responsibly to set a good example to women... I think that is ridiculous, and also sexist in itself. The characters aren't there to set examples, they are there to tell a story. They're individuals and behave accordingly. Is Draco a good example to teenage boys? Is Harry - when he lies, cheats in school, and takes his anger out on people that don't deserve it? What about Snape, when he bullies his students - is he a good example for men? Why should Tonks behave in a particular way just because she's female - why should she bear that responsibility, just because she is female? Why can't she just be an individual, even if that means she behaves in a way you think is 'weak' or 'sterotypical'? Her character is a human being with a heart, first and foremost. It isn't about gender, it's about personality. So she has the personality of someone who loves fiercely and lets that get to her too much. I personally think that Ron lets his emotions get to him too much, and so does Snape, because he allows his biterness and resentment to control him. Each character has their own personality, and they do not have to be "positive role models".

I personally do think that love is very important and I was glad it played such a huge role in HBP. I felt like Rowling was trying to express the importance of love - since that is exactly what Dumbledore was trying to make Harry understand. That Voldemort can never feel love and he doesn't understand it, or its poweful affects on people, but Harry can. He was protected by love, and he can still love despite all that has happened to him, and despite the similarities with Voldemort's life and his own they are still so different. Voldemort grew up spiteful and cruel and didn't want friends, but Harry was so open to friendship and he despises bullies. Tom's mother did not care enough about him to live, but Lily loved Harry enough to die for him. Tom never loved anyone, but Harry never lost his ability to love in spite of the Dursley's neglect and abuse. So all of the examples of various kinds of love in Half-Blood Prince, and the strong effect it can have on the individual, seemed fitting to me, considering how often Rowling has mentioned the importance of love in these books. I think the fact that Tonks allowed her love for Remus to rule her can be a valuable lesson and is a good example of how strong and important love can be.

[allzugern.livejournal.com]

My impression of Tonks was always of someone young, freespirited and enthusiastic, who didn't hide her feelings and threw herself into her endevours. So her behaviour in HBP didn't strike me as OOC or odd.

I wasn't talking about Tonks being OOC at all. I liked her character just fine in OotP. It is also fine to be emotional, male or female. What is not appropriate is to have that character fall to pieces (the men certainly don't) to the extent that she is unable to function. She knows what the stakes are and that she has a responsibility to the job she chose. Jesus, she wasn't even involved with Remus. They weren't dating and they certainly weren't married. Her reactions are overboard and totally inappropriate and from my pov totally sexist. Remus lost one of his best friends, the last of his bestfriends, whom he loved, and he gets on with his life and his responsibilities. Remus doesn't fall apart.

But we are never going to see this the same way, so we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[(Anonymous)]

No, Remus doesn't fall apart.. that's one of the reasons I like him so much. Though I do think he bottles himself up to much.

How do we know that Tonks and Remus weren't involved? That's what I meant earlier in my comment about the subtelty of that storyline - what I should have said is that it was vague. I got the impression that something had happened between them that we weren't told about. I know a lot of stuff happens behind the scenes in Harry Potter.

It's cool, I didn't think you had to agree with me. I'm sure I know people who didn't like her behaviour, either, and everyone is entitled to have their own opinion and beliefs.

[nuka-cola.livejournal.com]

Sorry, forgot to log in ;)

I figured it was you :-)

[allzugern.livejournal.com]

Hmmm, I suppose that my belief that there wasn't much going on between them is Remus's behaviour and his character. While there might have been a kiss between them, I think said kiss is what would have caused Remus to 'wake-up' and pull away. It's obvious from the converstation they have at the end, that Tonks has been after him, pleading her case over and over. I can't see Remus having an affair with her and them breaking it off. He seems too straight forward for that.

So, totally my own opinion, they got close due to work for the Order, maybe spend some time alone together, there is a moment when they maybe kiss and then (I can so see him) Remus pulls away and begins to explain why it can't go any further. Tonks persues, moping, depression ensues.

I could have lived with it if we had seen an upset Tonks, maybe a bit blue, but not one who totally goes to pieces. It just way over done. Her behaviour is more of a woman who has been devistated by great tragedy -- maybe someone who lost a husband and children.

Also, being a mother, I am always critical (maybe over-critical) of the role models that are set before impressionable children and the HP books are being read millions of
them (including mine). Kids take the books seriously -- I mean they are basically growing-up with them, and it made me nuts to think of young girls reading this and being influenced by it.

Re: I figured it was you :-)

[nuka-cola.livejournal.com]

I don't know if girls would be so much influenced by Tonks' behaviour as possibly moved by it, or they just wouldn't care so long as the characters were happy in the end - which may send the wrong message, but we didn't see much of Tonks/Remus anyway. Her behavour didn't really bother me because I didn't consider her gender as a factor. I don't agree with the behaviour, but I understand it. I believe that Tonks' main reason for being so devastated was the fact that she cares so much for Remus, which touches me because I want to see him with someone who really appreciates him and will commit to him as I imagine he would commit to any partner.

Personally though I've never been a Tonks/Remus fan. My sister likes it, though she also likes Tonks/Snape, so... yeah. I think it's safe to assume that she just wants to see Remus getting it on. ;)

I agree that Remus is too straightforward to lead anyone on, but I can see him welcoming Tonks' friendship after Sirius' death, and I can see that developing into something more. She is so open, and he is so closed. I think that a friendship with her would be very good for him. Sirius was wrapped up in a lot of bitterness and never fully recovered, but Tonks is almost always positive. I think she could do good things for Remus. But as for a relationship developing... well, I can't see it getting very far, either, before Remus put a stop to it. I think he is capable of ignoring his own conscience (as we know from his schooldays), but whether he has overcome that now I have no idea. So maybe he had a slip, then came to his senses and pushed her away. Or maybe it was as you said - there was a slow buildup that finally lead to a kiss, which woke him up. I can see Remus choosing to ignore what was going on until that moment.

As long as his character gets a bit more love, I'm happy!

Re: I figured it was you :-)

[nuka-cola.livejournal.com]

btw, I know what you mean about kids growing up with these books. But I think overall the message in Half-Blood Prince was a positive one, and Rowling of course is conscious of the issue, since she is also a mother. I just think she prefers to remain true to the characters, no matter what. And I guess she had her own reasons for making Tonks behave that way. I prefer to think she just wanted Remus to have someone love him fiercely, as I know he is one of her favourite characters.

Re:

[wolfsbaine.livejournal.com]

So at the end of the book she's holding hands with Lupin, and she is all perky and back to her normal magical self BECAUSE SHE GOT THE GUY??? WTF??? Way to go Jo. Lets show young impressionable girls that are reading your books how your life falls apart and your job means nothing--your whole life and the world around you means nothing, without that special guy on your side. Go ahead, let yourself go to pot, forget about those who are relying on you in a time of great danger and need, forget respect for self and ones inner spirit, because you amount to nothing unless that special someone graces you with his attentions.


I couldn't agree more with this; it was a really bad example to show anyone, not just kids. It relegated women to being overly emotional and cannot function if they don't get what they want. Or maybe this is how JK feels about herself; perhaps she feels nothing with out a man to complete her. Now that is a scary thought...21st Century and the only way Tonks, can be anything is if she gets her man, god that is so pathetically sad.

I didn't like the ship, because I just hate that whole, protect me, take care of me, beauty and the beast, crap that came out of the relationship, I only hope it gets better.

All I can say further is, I bet Sirius wherever he is, is really glad he is dead! ^_~

[(Anonymous)]

Now that is a scary thought...21st Century and the only way Tonks, can be anything is if she gets her man, god that is so pathetically sad.

Exactly. I was really hoping with OotP we were finally getting a female character of some strength (see my comment above regarding the lack of positive female characters in the HP series) so I was bitterly disappointed with where Tonks went in HBP. I am still holding out a small bit of hope that there is more to it, but considering how the book ended it was nothing more than Tonks getting her man.

I bet Sirius wherever he is, is really glad he is dead!

LOL! I think the phrase is 'rolling over in his grave', though I guess he doesn t have one of those...

[allzugern.livejournal.com]

Oh, sorry, forgot to log in. That last comment was from me :-P

[(Anonymous)]

I don't think you can easily draw connections between how people felt about OotP and HBP. Harry's despair and abandoment in OotP were incredibly painful to read, but he had bounced back to his normal self in HBP. And although JKR killed off a major character in both books, the death of Sirius came as a complete shock to most people whereas they were largely prepared for Dumbledore's death. Following OotP were a lot of complaints about the length of the book, but other than that it seemed to be just people wailing over Sirius's death.

M

[black-dog.livejournal.com]

This poll is a nice reality check on my own impressions, and makes me wonder a little if I'm cocooning within one segment of fandom, or just selectively hearing certain perspectives and disregarding others -- always a welcome wakeup call.

What I remember about OOTP was just this general mood of despair among writers and meta-people whose LJs I was following at the time. They were disappointed in Harry, they found it a painful read, all the characters were behaving hatefully, etc. etc. I actually did a review post at the time that had a "don't freak out, look at the positive side" message, which might have contributed to my lingering sense that the book was embattled and needed a defense. It's surprising to see that so many people had milder or positive opinions, or thought that fandom as a whole was neutral. Reality check taken. :)

I really love HBP, and of course the circle of H/D'ers I like to follow is just bubbling over about it, so again the echo chamber made me feel that the reception was overwhelmingly positive.

I suppose a lot of other people may have been similarly surprised. Interesting poll, and a very useful thing to have done.

[ptyx.livejournal.com]

It's funny how our (fans') perceptions are different. I hated OotP, but I felt I was in a minority. As the time went by, it seems more and more people felt discontent with OotP. HBP has many flaws, but I liked it very much because of the way JKR managed to keep the ambiguity from beginning to end. And it's also a more exciting book - it left many questions. I believe most people liked the book, but I'm expressing the point of vue of a very restricted corner in fandom (Snape fans on livejournal).

[ptyx.livejournal.com]

"Point of view". It seems I'm speaking Franglish this morning. I need my caffeine!

[sternel.livejournal.com]

...to be honest? I've pretty much ignored my flist's reactions. I haven't even read that Leaky interview yet, and I might not bother. I just don't care. I enjoyed it, and my close friends did, and we've had our discussions and we're amused. That's all.

::crawls back into hole::

[lalaithyamainu.livejournal.com]

*Harry/Ginny shipper* squeeee!!!!!!!
*Ron/Hermione shipper* Yay!!!!
*Harry/Hermione shipper* *cries, then runs to fanfiction*
*Harry/Draco shipper* New material!
*Draco/Snape* Totally rules!
*Remus/Serious* We can work with this...
*Remus/Tonks* Yay! I think....
*Average fan* Cool!!!!
*Intellectual fan* Could use a bit of work on character development, but *two thumbs up -because it's Harry Potter*
*Seriously Studious fan* Liked it overall, but had problems with *lists*
*Insanly Obsessed fan* *is to busy analyzing to come to a conclusion*

At least from what I've seen...

[mjt13.livejournal.com]

HBP is definitely my favorite of the series so far, don't know why...

I don't like Harry much here--can't he just mind his own f*cking business for once?
And the Hermione-Ron fight made them out to be kind of shallow. In the middle of the book, which was the middle of their fight, I literally forgot what they actually fought about. I mean does Hermione have feelings for Ron or something because whenever she saw him with Lavender she got all pissed, but it's unclear if she's interested in him.

But I still love it. Maybe 'cause I thought OOTP was very boring and waaay too angsty...? HBP was definitely better, in my opinion. And the characters (excluding Harry since he can't mind his own f*cking business) seemed to have matured a bit.

[aithopa.livejournal.com]

I want to poll! but seriously, I can't tell. My general impression after OotP was that people didn't like it - but that could be because I only remember the reactions that agreed with me. And now people are all, wah, OotP was so much better! (Though HBP makes me at least really reconsider OotP, and rethink its merits. That didn't happen for mewith OotP and GoF.)

The reactions I've seen to HBP (so far) are shipper woe, disappointment at the blandness, or extreme I <3 IT BEST EVAR!!!

I wonder if people who like OotP didn't like HBP, and vice versa, as a general trend? Eh.

[pauraque]

I wonder if people who like OotP didn't like HBP, and vice versa, as a general trend?

idlerat has suggested the same thing to me! It seems to often be the case.