GoF 9

[pauraque_bk]

Happy birthday, millefiori!


In Chapter 8 (where I've sadly had very little time to respond to the comments) everyone seemed to think that when I chided Harry for not listening to Arthur's advice about appearances not being everything, I was talking about his relationship to Ginny. I was actually thinking of his relationship to Snape! More generally, his unwillingness to look beyond what is outwardly apparent. Am I still living in 2003, or what?


GoF 9: The Dark Mark

Holy crap, this chapter is long.

They were soon arguing enjoyably about the match; Mr Weasley got drawn into a disagreement about cobbing with Charlie[...] (106)

About what?

One of the marchers below flipped Mrs Roberts upside-down with his wand; her nightdress fell down to reveal voluminous drawers; she struggled to cover herself up as the crowd below her screeched and hooted with glee.

'That's sick,' Ron muttered, watching the smallest Muggle child, who had begun to spin like a top, sixty feet above the ground, his head flopping limply from side to side. 'That is really sick...' (108)

Oh man! A character held upside-down, revealing their underwear -- OotP 28, anyone? That taunting word voluminous intensifies the sense of humiliation. It's that Hanged Man tarot imagery again, too.

'We're going to help the Ministry,' Mr Weasley shouted over all the noise, rolling up his own sleeves. 'You lot -- get into the woods, and stick together. I'll come fetch you when we've sorted this out!' (108-109)

It wasn't immediately clear why Arthur was telling them to run into the woods rather than stay inside the tents, but later there are references to other tents that have been destroyed/trampled.

Ron told Malfoy to do something that Harry knew he would never have dared say in front of Mrs Weasley. (110)

I was sure there was someone who'd done a post on canonical swearing... turns out it was me! "Hell" shows up several times in GoF and OotP, but never "go to hell", so it's possible that's what JKR is avoiding here. Could also be "sod off", "bugger off"...

'Granger, they're after Muggles,' said Malfoy. 'D'you want to be showing off your knickers in mid-air? Because if you do, hang around ... they're moving this way, and it would give us all a laugh.' (110)

'Oh, come on,' said Hermione, with a disgusted look at Malfoy, 'let's go and find the others.'

'Keep that big bushy head down, Granger,' sneered Malfoy. (111)

Intriguing that Draco's taunts take the form of accurate advice. Not to mention that he's hiding out in the woods too, rather than hanging on the Death Eaters' coattails jumping up and down with glee. I think he's putting on a bit of a show for the Trio, here, playing it cool. I don't think he's concerned for Hermione's safety because he likes her personally -- if Lucius and/or Narcissa are really out there, he could be worried they'll be arrested, which would be ample reason for him not to want this to go too far.

'You know, house-elves get a very raw deal!' said Hermione indignantly. 'It's slavery, that's what it is![...]' (112)

And she carries on about this for quite a while. Seems like a strange moment to introduce this plotline, in the midst of such commotion. Actually, they hang out in the woods not doing much for quite a while in this chapter.

Then, later:

Hermione rounded on him. 'That doesn't mean she hasn't got feelings, Ron, it's disgusting the way--'

'Hermione, I agree with you,' said Mr Weasley quickly, beckoning her on, 'but not is not the time to discuss elf rights[...]' (125)

The fact that he quickly agrees (whether he genuinely does or is just trying to shut her up) and easily comes up with the phrase "elf rights" is indicative of an existing elf-liberation movement, I think.

They passed a group of goblins, who were cackling over a sack of gold they had undoubtedly won betting on the match, and who seemed quite unperturbed by the trouble on the campsite. (113)

As usual, goblins keep to themselves, unconcerned with the affairs of humankind.

A third young wizard, whose pimples were visible even by the dim, silvery light of the Veela, now cut in, 'I'm about to become the youngest ever Minister for Magic, I am.'

Harry snorted with laughter. He recognised the pimply wizard; his name was Stan Shunpike, and he was in fact a conductor on the triple-decker Knight Bus.

He turned to tell Ron this, but Ron's face had gone oddly slack, and the next second Ron was yelling, 'Did I tell you I've invented a broomstick that'll reach Jupiter?' (113)

Stan! Free Stan!

I was surprised to find that some readers actually believed that he might have been connected to the DEs at the time of his arrest in HBP. It seemed to me a clear example of a total innocent being held without trial by an incompetent government. This scene is probably all we have for direct evidence of his innocence -- while the DEs are cavorting, he's nowhere near them.

This is also, I think, where folks get the idea that Harry is less affected by Veela than other men are. When the Veela are first introduced, he does become immediately entranced, but not here.

And then Ludo Bagman comes stumbling out from behind a tree:

Even by the feeble light of the two wands, Harry could see that a great change had come over Bagman. [...] He looked very white and strained.

'Who's that?' he said, blinking down at them, trying to make out their faces. 'What are you doing in here, all alone?'

They looked at each other, surprised.

'Well -- there's a sort of riot going on,' said Ron.

Bagman stared at him. 'What?' (115)

I think I've missed/forgotten something here. If Bagman doesn't know about the riot until Ron tells him, what's he already upset about?

So, Barty Jr (invisible under the cloak) fires off the Morsmordre with Harry's wand, leaves Winky the incriminating evidence, and flees the scene. [ETA: As gmth points out, I'm wrong here. He's actually Stunned, and Senior picks him up later.] The Ministry wizards come a-running:

'Do not lie, sir!' shouted Mr Crouch. His wand was still pointing directly at Ron, and his eyes were popping -- he looked slightly mad. 'You have been discovered at the scene of the crime!' (117)

Poor Crouch Sr. He's grasping at the slightest hope that Junior may not actually have escaped.

[Winky] caught sight of Mr Diggory's feet, and slowly, tremulously, raised her eyes to stare up into his face; then, more slowly still, she looked up into the sky. Harry could see the floating skull reflected twice in her enormous, glassy eyes. (120)

I think it was idlerat who once talked about the cinematic style of JKR's writing. Can't you just see this on the screen?

[Bill:] '[...]We caught the Robertses before they hit the ground, though. They're having their memories modified right now.' (127)

This suddenly reminded me of the Satanic ritual abuse phenomenon in the 1980s. In the Potterverse, there could be Muggles with genuine recovered memories of being tortured by wizards. *shudder*

'Death Eaters?' said Harry. 'What are Death Eaters?' (127)

I'd forgotten that the DEs weren't introduced by name until GoF. In the first three books, it isn't made very clear that Voldemort's supporters were officially organized.


Previous GoF posts are saved in memories here.

Comments

[atdelphi.livejournal.com]

I think I've missed/forgotten something here. If Bagman doesn't know about the riot until Ron tells him, what's he already upset about?

It's been way too long since I read the book, but hasn't he just lost money on the game at this point and has the goblins after him for it? I know it's something like that, which I think is why JKR has the goblins cackling over a sack of gold shortly before.

[pauraque]

You may be right. He certainly seems upset to have to pay up to F&G, even though he's only giving them Leprechaun gold.

[nakedcelt.livejournal.com]

Actually, they hang out in the woods not doing much for quite a while in this chapter.

Which, I think, conveys the anxiety and bewilderment of the moment much better than purposeful activity could. There's an extremely nasty situation developing all around them. What would they do? What can you do, except stay put, keep your head down, and hope you'll be able to get some answers once the immediate danger is over?

[pauraque]

Well, I would just sit there, but usually Harry goes racing into danger when he has the option, it seems to me. I do agree that the sense of bewilderment comes across.

[caesia390.livejournal.com]

Yay Draco <3 <3 <3 I'm glad to see that that scene went as I'd remembered (because god forbid i should ever crack a book). I definitely did read that as Draco indirectly trying to prevent harm to Hermione - not out of personal concern for her, or even at the definite possibility of his parents being arrested, so much as a general distaste for the reality of it, if that makes any sense. That he doesn't mind what his parents get up to, because it's part of being who they are, part of being powerful and rich and superior, but he doesn't want to see it (though he can't look away), doesn't want to be a part of it (though he knows he probably will be someday), and doesn't want to be immediately dragged into it by having one of his personal enemies, a school-fellow, one of his personal grudges made a part of it. That would be too much.

So he stands back and looks on - not in disgust, because he's got to be psyching himself up for it, probably subconsciously - but to maintain distance. He wants to put off the reality (I doubt he considers defying his eventual participation) as long as he can.

[pauraque]

Yeah, that's what I was getting from it too. If it had been a simple "bwah ha ha, I love to see Muggles getting tortured", he wouldn't have behaved the way he does in the book at all.

[scarah2.livejournal.com]

Cobbing is in Quidditch through the Ages, it is a foul for excessive use of elbows. Not that the average reader would know that.

That sack the goblins have, I think is the leprechaun gold that Bagman paid them.

Stan: totally innocent IMHO. I have to believe that Harry is totally vindicated in Harry vs. Scrimgeour. My main reasoning is actually just that there are too many ends to tie up in book 7 already. ;)

I'm not sure why Bagman looks a wreck either, unless some of his transactions haven't gone as smoothly as the one with the goblins (thus far anyway). Maybe someone recognized the leprechaun gold, and did something to him.

Can't you just see this on the screen?

Yes I can! Sadly, it's not going to be there. No Winky!

Re: Satanic ritual abuse: DARK wizards! Omg, it's totally real! Now I feel bad for the people who used to picket the building next to mine.

[pauraque]

Right, no Winky... Well, I found Dobby pretty tiresome in the CoS movie, so not a huge loss, if you ask me.

[vvvexation.livejournal.com]

Cobbing was actually mentioned during the match.

[dphearson.livejournal.com]

One of the marchers below flipped Mrs Roberts upside-down with his wand; her nightdress fell down to reveal voluminous drawers; she struggled to cover herself up as the crowd below her screeched and hooted with glee.

1) Why does the crowd even find this funny? What does it say when when people like this find this funny, instead of trying to see where the spell is coming, or getting the heck out of dodge? What the royal hell is wrong with these people? It's like laughing at the mad man who is homeless wearing a skirt. Like Ron says, it's sick.

Hermione, I agree with you,' said Mr Weasley quickly, beckoning her on, 'but not is not the time to discuss elf rights[...]' (125)

I think that Elf Rights have started up, in dribs and drabs, through the ages. To use a very bad, badly thought out corollary, the civil rights movememnt for African Americans actually existed for hundreds of years, where people went through phases of hand wringing, until just 10-15 years beofre the Civil Wars, when people started to do something about it, and then after the Civil War, there was still agitation for fair and equal treatment in law and life. It would beinteresting to see if there was such a corollary on the last book. In which case, poor Hermione will have a long road ahead of her!

[araneae.livejournal.com]

I think the crowd below her is actually the Death Eaters though, they're keeping her up with that spell after all.

[ook.livejournal.com]

Where else have you discussed the Hanged Man imagery? I've posted about this too, about how the Hanged Man tarot card and its symbolism are definitely associated with Snape.

[pauraque]

I've talked about it here and there, but most recently it came up in GoF Chapter 1; the pub in Little Hangleton is called The Hanged Man.

[hilarita.livejournal.com]

Harry's response to Veela may suggest that he's gay gay gay. (well, bi, given we get the chest monster o' doom in HBP).

cobbing = excessive use of elbows, described in the little Quidditch book JKR wrote for charity. Bit naughty to assume that everyone's read that, though.

[pauraque]

Yes, that was why I mentioned his reaction (or non-reaction) to the Veela.

[gmth.livejournal.com]

So, Barty Jr (invisible under the cloak) fires off the Morsmordre with Harry's wand, leaves Winky the incriminating evidence, and flees the scene.

He doesn't flee. When the Ministry folks arrive they shoot stunners through the trees and one hits Barty Jr. His father finds him later.

[pauraque]

Yes, you're right. And then V and Peter show up at the House of Crouch later. Got it.

[millefiori.livejournal.com]

Thank you so much for the birthday wishes! :D

[pauraque]

Welcome, my multifloral friend. :D

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

About what?

Cobbing is excessive use of elbows, learned by some people from that book about Quidditch, learned by me via Ernie Macmillan in Nocturne_Alley.

Oh man! A character held upside-down, revealing their underwear -- OotP 28, anyone? That taunting word voluminous intensifies the sense of humiliation. It's that Hanged Man tarot imagery again, too.

And yet look at all the random people who join in. It's really interesting, because things only get scary when the Dark Mark appears. Before that people are apparently willing to cavort with Death Eaters (or people dressed as such--they may not know they are possibly the real thing). It says a lot about the way the WW works--things they do themselves become scary when they're attached to the name of Voldemort.

Intriguing that Draco's taunts take the form of accurate advice. Not to mention that he's hiding out in the woods too, rather than hanging on the Death Eaters' coattails jumping up and down with glee. I think he's putting on a bit of a show for the Trio, here, playing it cool. I don't think he's concerned for Hermione's safety because he likes her personally -- if Lucius and/or Narcissa are really out there, he could be worried they'll be arrested, which would be ample reason for him not to want this to go too far.

Hurray for HBP shedding more light on this! I've never thought of Draco as warning anybody in this scene, but he absolutely is showing that he's not trying to get Hermione caught up in it--he's more interested in just looking cool. I wonder if, at the end of the series, this scene will be even more interesting from his pov. I mean, here he is all alone in the middle of the chaos. To the Trio he sort of pops out like one of Satan's Minions, smiling at the chaos, but really where are his parents? Are they both tormenting Muggles? Did they send him away? Are they drunk and rowdy? Is this the first of this type thing he's seen? I wouldn't be surprised if he gets a bit of comfort having the other kids there--later on the train Draco has another one of his scenes where I don't think he's being entirely antagonistic. Interesting that it happens in this book, after this scene.

The fact that he quickly agrees (whether he genuinely does or is just trying to shut her up) and easily comes up with the phrase "elf rights" is indicative of an existing elf-liberation movement, I think.

Or that the author's a bit sloppy here and just using the term that to us is the obvious one, assuming Arthur would know it too. Usually it's only Hermione who talks about "X rights."

I think I've missed/forgotten something here. If Bagman doesn't know about the riot until Ron tells him, what's he already upset about?

Definitely the money he's lost and the trouble he's therefore in, I think. It's nice the way he's tossed in that way, showing signs of his own subplot.

[pauraque]

Or that the author's a bit sloppy here and just using the term that to us is the obvious one, assuming Arthur would know it too. Usually it's only Hermione who talks about "X rights."

Hm, maybe. There are a lot of things about this book that I do think are sloppy, but usually her character voices aren't, IMO.

[amythis.livejournal.com]

Am I still living in 2003, or what?

Huh? You mean the Order-of-the-Phoenix-as-new-book era?

Oh man! A character held upside-down, revealing their underwear -- OotP 28, anyone?

Well, I think that's JKR's point, that Harry sees that his own father could be as cruel as a Death Eater.

Seems like a strange moment to introduce this plotline, in the midst of such commotion.

But isn't the abuse of elves one of the points of this chapter? If elves weren't so easy to push around, then Barty Jr. wouldn't have been able to help Voldemort.

This scene is probably all we have for direct evidence of his innocence -- while the DEs are cavorting, he's nowhere near them.

Also he doesn't come across as a DE on the Knight Bus.

This is also, I think, where folks get the idea that Harry is less affected by Veela than other men are.

Here and when Fleur flounces in during "An Excess of Phlegm." Less affected than Ron at least. (Love the "broomstick" line. Surprised JKR resisted saying "Uranus" for once.)

[alya1989262.livejournal.com]

Oh man! A character held upside-down, revealing their underwear -- OotP 28, anyone?

Well, I think that's JKR's point, that Harry sees that his own father could be as cruel as a Death Eater.

Hermione made that point in HBP.

[lycoris.livejournal.com]

You have a minor mind don't you? :D I always assumed Ron was telling Malfoy to fuck off!

The reason Bagman's all confused is because he just got robbed by the goblins - hence the reason that in the chapter, you see the goblins cackling over some sacks of gold. One of JKR's nice little touches. :)

[pauraque]

I also thought of "go fuck yourself", but I wasn't sure if that's an Americanism.

You have a minor mind don't you?

A what?

[pilly2009.livejournal.com]

if Lucius and/or Narcissa are really out there, he could be worried they'll be arrested, which would be ample reason for him not to want this to go too far.

Going a bit off topic here, but can Narcissa now be classified as a Death Eater? We know that given how much she loves her son, she wouldn't ditch him to go run and hide somewhere on her own, so she probably was within the action. In OotP, Kreacher gets his orders from her, and in HBP Bellatrix behaves as though she is directly betraying the Dark Lord by going to Snape (though this wouldn't be a concern for someone who wasn't a member of Voldemort's gang).

This means that the DEs aren't solely a men's club, after all; adding to Bella and Narcissa, we've also got that female Alecto in HBP (one of the DEs in the Astronomy Tower at the end). So Bella can't be merely the exception to the rule. And it never made sense to me for the Death Eaters to solely be comprised of men, since nothing in Voldemort's character or history indicated that he was particularly sexist (or if he was, that this attitude wasn't reversed upon finding out that it was his mother who was an Heir of Slytherin while his father was a Muggle).

It wasn't mentioned here, but Hermione's being more frightened of the Dark Mark than Ron and Harry were felt really off to me; sort of like that part in the CoS movie where it was Hermione who explained the meaning of the word Mudblood instead of Ron. Neither of the boys knew what the Mark meant, true, but never having been around for Voldemort's first reign, why would Hermione be so much more terrified?

[atalantapendrag.livejournal.com]

*shrug* I'll buy her knowing what it meant through being a major bookworm, but that wouldn't provide the same visceral reaction as if she'd been through it all before.

[skelkins.livejournal.com]

So, Barty Jr (invisible under the cloak) fires off the Morsmordre with Harry's wand, leaves Winky the incriminating evidence, and flees the scene. The Ministry wizards come a-running...

One of the interesting things about this chapter and the previous one, to my mind, is the way that in retrospect, it can be seen to be upholding the series pattern of "Harry always interacts with the character who is to be the new professor before the school year starts." Barty Jr. is never seen, yet he first steals Harry's wand and then sets off the Morsmordre right next to him.

Of course, in this case, Harry doesn't realize that he's interacting with Barty Jr. (nor, for that matter, will he know until the end of the book that Barty Jr. is actually the new DADA prof), but it's nonetheless interesting that he does have some interaction with Barty here -- whereas he never sees, meets, or interacts with Real!Moody before the school year starts at all. He does hear the Weasleys talking about Moody, but the two never actually interact.

If you were inclined to read the HP books as mystery novels (which I myself am not, but many are), I guess you could call this a "clue."

[pauraque]

The difficulty I have with reading them as mysteries is that if they are, they're bad mysteries, because neither the reader nor the protagonist has enough information to solve them! The patterns and "hints" are definitely there, but you have to already know the outcome to recognize them.

And hi! I have to admit I was very flattered that you'd friended me. I'm a big, big fan of your analyses. Thrilled to have you along. :D