GoF 16

[pauraque_bk]

In Chapter 15 I greatly enjoyed the debate on the Hagrid-Snape parallels (or lack thereof, as you like). It made me clap my hands in analytical glee.


Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire, Chapter 16: The Goblet of Fire

Welcome to the department of redundancy department.

Several sixth-year girls were frantically searching their pockets as they walked -- 'Oh, I don't believe it, I haven't got a single quill on me --' 'D'you think he'd sign my hat in lipstick?'

[...]

'I'm getting [Krum's] autograph if I can,' said Ron, 'you haven't got a quill, have you, Harry?' (219)

'Yeah, that's right, smarm up to him, Malfoy,' said Ron scathingly. 'I bet Krum can see right through him, though ... bet he gets people fawning over him all the time ... where d'you reckon they're going to sleep? We could offer him a space in our dormitory, Harry ... I wouldn't mind giving him my bed, I could kip on a camp-bed.' (220)

'Where is he?' said Ron, who wasn't listening to a word of this conversation, but looking through the crowd to see what had become of Krum. 'Dumbledore didn't say where the Durmstrang people are sleeping, did he?' (226)

*rolls about laughing*

I swear, Ron's boycrush on Krum is one of the best things in this book. I love how it's juxtaposed with the girls, and then his jealousy that Draco's talking to Krum, and then his intense concern about where he'll be sleeping... Oh man. Where's all the Ron/Krum, people? Where?

The students from Beauxbatons had chosen seats at the Ravenclaw table. (219)

Viktor Krum and his fellow Durmstrang students had settled themselves at the Slytherin table. (220)

The Beauxbatons kids are distant and beautiful, like Cho. The Durmstrang kids are associated with the Dark Arts. (Nice of someone to fill them in on this stuff so that they'd pick the right seats.)

[Dumbledore:] 'I hope and trust that your stay here will be both comfortable and enjoyable.'

One of the Beauxbatons girls still clutching a muffler around her head gave what was unmistakeably a derisive laugh.

'No one's making you stay!' Hermione whispered, bristling at her. (221)

As sistermagpie pointed out last chapter, Hermione gets defensive about the snooty French Beauxbatons girls. I'm not really sure why.

At that moment, a voice said, 'Excuse me, are you wanting ze bouillabaisse?'

It was the girl from Beauxbatons who had laughed during Dumbledore's speech. She had finally removed her muffler. A long sheet of silvery blonde hair fell almost to her waist. She had large, deep blue eyes, and very white, even teeth.

Ron went purple. He stared up at her, opened his mouth to reply, but nothing came out except a faint gurgling noise.

'Yeah, have it,' said Harry, pushing the dish towards the girl. (222)

Another instance of Harry being less affected by Veela magic than Ron. I'd also say that Harry is a bit of a late bloomer compared to Ron; in this book Harry's sexual awareness is just beginning, whereas Ron is already crushing on everything that moves.

Remembering [Mr Crouch] in his neat suit at the Quidditch World Cup, Harry thought he looked strange in wizard's robes. (224)

Mr Crouch, however, looked quite uninterested, almost bored. (236)

Does he look strange to Harry because he's in different clothes, or because something else seems off about him? He's not bored, he's under the Imperius! Harry seems to have a vague sense of something amiss, but can't put his finger on it.

Filch, who had been lurking unnoticed in a far corner of the Hall, now approached Dumbledore, carrying a great wooden chest, encrusted with jewels. It looked extremely old. (224)

[Dumbledore:] 'The champions will be chosen by an impartial selector ... the Goblet of Fire.'

Dumbledore now took out his wand, and tapped three times upon the top of the casket. The lid creaked slowly open. Dumbleodre reached inside it, and pulled out a large, roughly hewn wooden cup. It would have been entirely unremarkable, had it not been full to the brim with dancing, blue-white flames. (225)

I'd forgotten that the Goblet was plain-looking. Something about these descriptions put me in mind of the Holy Grail.

Any theories on how the Goblet works, or where it came from? Do you think it'll be important later?

Also: Goblet/Hat OTP.

'Back to the ship, then,' [Karkaroff] was saying. 'Viktor, how are you feeling? Did you eat enough? Should I send for some mulled wine from the kitchens?' (226)

Karkaroff is always very solicitous of Krum, his star pupil. Krum seems uninterested in Karkaroff's attentions. I like Krum, I like that he's down-to-earth.

Professor Karkaroff spun around. Mad-Eye Moody was standing there, leaning heavily on his staff, his magical eye glaring unblinkingly at the Durmstrang Headmaster.

The colour drained from Karkaroff's face as Harry watched. A terrible look of mingled fury and fear came over his face.

'You!' he said, staring at Moody as though unsure he was really seeing him. (227)

Back in Chapter 14 pilly2009 wondered why Karkaroff wasn't more afraid of Moody. It seems clear here that he is afraid; his later nonchalance with Snape may have been pretense.

[Hagrid was] arguing with Hermione about house-elves -- for he flatly refused to join S.P.E.W. when she showed him her badges.

'It'd be doin' 'em an unkindness, Hermione,' he said gravely[...] 'It's in their nature ter look after humans, that's what they like, see? Yeh'd be makin' 'em unhappy ter take away their work, an' insultin' 'em if yeh tried ter pay 'em.'

'But Harry set Dobby free, and he was over the moon about it!' said Hermione. 'And we heard he's asking for wages now!'

'Yeah, well, yeh get weirdos in every breed. I'm not sayin' there isn't the odd elf who'd take freedom, but yeh'll never persuade most of 'em ter do it -- no, nothin' doin', Hermione.' (233)

Hermione still hasn't talked to the elves yet, but this is the first time she's (unknowingly) brought up elf welfare to a non-human, and he's very opposed to her ideas. Again, I don't know if we're meant to agree with Hagrid or not. I find the house elf plotline immensely frustrating; I just can't tell where it's going.

'He fancies [Madame Maxime]!' said Ron incredulously. 'Well, if they end up having children, they'll be setting a world record -- bet any baby of theirs would weigh about a ton.' (235)

Before HBP, Hagrid was the only adult character canonically shown to pursue a romantic relationship.


Previous GoF posts are saved in memories here.

Comments

[sophia-helix.livejournal.com]

As sistermagpie pointed out last chapter, Hermione gets defensive about the snooty French Beauxbatons girls. I'm not really sure why.

Gorgeous, older French girls descend on your school, bewitch all the boys, and are snooty about your castle. What's not to get defensive about at age fourteen? ;)

[silentauror.livejournal.com]

Yes, just what I was going to say. Plus, she still has big teeth at this point, right? Not exactly hugely sought-after by the males of her year? I'd be annoyed if they were all off crushing on the Beauxbatons girls, too.

[serriadh.livejournal.com]

There's often also a rivalry amongst girls between the 'books' and the 'looks' (to quote Matilda). It's often portrayed that you're either beautiful or you're clever, not both. Consequently, the Beaubatons (beautiful, and also possibly clever) are immensely threatening to Hermione.
Do we see whether Lavendar and Parvati (for instance, to pick two of the more supposedly 'frivolous' girls) have such a problem with the French girls?
Also - perhaps JKR is trying to hint at some Ron/Hermione here - Ron goes gaga over Fleur and the other beautiful French girls, and Hermione gets pissed off?

[nakedcelt.livejournal.com]

...perhaps JKR is trying to hint at some Ron/Hermione here...

Gosh, you think?!

[silentauror.livejournal.com]

Oh, absolutely. Poor Herms. :) And I totally thought that GoF was all about the Ron/Hermione angst, especially around the Yule Ball/Krum issues, but I'm getting ahead of ourselves here.

[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

Do we see whether Lavendar and Parvati (for instance, to pick two of the more supposedly 'frivolous' girls) have such a problem with the French girls?

It seems to me that Hermione and Ginny generally don't seem to get on with other girls so much at all, French or not.
Hermione shares a dorm with Lavendar and Parvati, who she seems to view with some contempt unless she needs to interact with them in order to gain a male's attention; such as in HBP.
Ginny has Luna, who she mocks behind her back and seems to interact with patronisingly - her reaction to Harry taking her to Slughorn's party, for example.
They're friends themselves, but this seems to largely be based around males - Hermione apparently advises/d Ginny on Harry, Ginny is Ron, Hermione's love interest's sister. Certainly Ginny's loyalty appears to be to Harry above Hermione in HBP, at least, if not GoF (of course, GoF!Ginny was a different character, which might explain it! ;)
They both have no other close female friends we know of, and tend to scorn the gender/overt displays of feminity in general - Fleur, Romilda Vane, the 'silly girls' who fangirl Krum. (It made me laugh in HBP, where they both hang back warily even from a pink display case in Fred and George's shop!)

[pilly2009.livejournal.com]

Consequently, the Beaubatons (beautiful, and also possibly clever) are immensely threatening to Hermione.

I remember discussing this topic on [Bad username or site: a chapter a day @ livejournal.com], but I completely this other example of Insecure-over-Looks!Hermione; it's definitely not the first time Hermione's gotten irate over the possibility of the pretty girls not staying in her self-imposed category of "dumb airheads".

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I don't think the boys are crushing on the Beauxbatons girls yet. Herimone's just reacting to the kids in their silk robes shivering and saying Hogwarts is too drafty. I don't think it's *strictly* about boys crushing on them (especially since some of them are boys). They do maybe make her feel unsophisticated where a pretty Hogwarts girl wouldn't. Personally, I like to think Hermione's also acting out of National Pride, myself.:-)

[silentauror.livejournal.com]

Don't forget, she's already experienced Ron (and Harry) fawning over the Veela at the World Cup and had some time to get jealous about that already. If we're going on the theory (and this "we" certainly is!) that Hermione already has a thing for Ron (which we can argue about come the Yule Ball chapter!), then I can see her being irritated about Ron and whomever else's overt interest in the Beauxbatons girls.

Although I do agree that there's a sensible-British-girl-dressed-appropriately-for-Scottish-weather versus foolishly-but-fashionably-clad-French-students thing going on here, too. Hee, sorry about all the hyphons. :D

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I agree Hermione is already into Ron and annoyed by anyone he likes, but at the point when Hermione has that line Ron hasn't seen Fleur and Hermione has already expressed annoyance at the fact that *all* the BB students are looking glumly around the hall and shivering. She's reacting to the way the BB students look critical of the new place they're in before anybody shows any particular interest in them as attractive people.

[silentauror.livejournal.com]

That is true. I wonder if she disapproves of the event at large because of its danger factor, or just resents having it disrupt her daily life like that?

[grasshopper.livejournal.com]

The house-elf plotline is one of the few instances where I get the feeling that JKR is even slightly aware of the flaws of her golden Gryffindors.

Normally she tells us that they are examples of all that is Right and Good, even if this seems to contradict what she's showing us. The Weasley twins are a prime example of this; we are told that they are good because they side with the hero and oppose the bad guy, and because Harry likes them. However, upon closer analysis it is shown, probably unintentionally, that they are only good and pleasant and amusing if they are on your side (cf. Ton-Tongue Toffee incident, pet Puffskein as Bludger incident, teddy bear incident, &c.)

Hermione's house elf campaign, on the other hand, is an instance where authorial intent matches perceptions within the text. Nobody within the text approves of Hermione's patronising, practically Orientalist (in the sense of patronising and protecting the interests of an 'Other' who does not 'know any better') efforts, and JKR herself spends a lot of textual time making sure the reader scoffs at it too.

I don't really know where to go from here, though. Is JKR making some kind of point about how Rightness is relative? Or is she just ignorant of the fact that she's being inconsistent?

--Garland

P.S. Some good points about the inherent flaws of do-gooding Gryffindors may be found , in an essay based on an analysis of the four houses' elements.


(http://www.livejournal.com/community/lightning_war/491.html#cutid1)

[amythis.livejournal.com]

The Twins "are only good and pleasant and amusing if they are on your side (cf. Ton-Tongue Toffee incident, pet Puffskein as Bludger incident, teddy bear incident, &c.)"

Actually, the teddy bear incident seems to prove that even if you are on their side (which Ron mostly is, and must've been at 3), you're still not safe.

[spiffariffic.livejournal.com]

Actually, the teddy bear incident seems to prove that even if you are on their side (which Ron mostly is, and must've been at 3), you're still not safe.

That's true. The Unbreakable Oath that Ron says Fred(?) tried to get him to take is another example, and I think even more sinister than the teddy bear = spider thing. I doubt the twins wanted to kill Ron, but they really came close to it a few times.

[amythis.livejournal.com]

It's Fred, who's always struck me as crueler more mischievous than George, although George certainly goes along with Fred's schemes.

[likethemodel.livejournal.com]

Is it JKR who tells us this or Harry? He's the narrator of 90% of the series so almost everything we learn is filtered through his eyes. Gryffindors are right and good since Harry is a Gryffindor. Slytherins are bad because the routinely challenge Gryffindors, Hufflepuffs are good because they don’t (except for Smith who was a jerk, of course). The Weasley twins have always been very good to Harry, so of course he won't think they're terrible. Torturing Dudley was a plus in his eyes: Dudley is a pig, it serves him right, etc.

(The same with the rest of his 'enemies': Snape is a great death-eating bat, Draco is a twitchy little ferret, Umbridge is a toad, Petunia is horsey-gossip. Even Hermione was described as a bushy haired, big-toothed know-it-all at first. I wonder how long it would've taken him to come up with 'beaver' if not for the troll incident. Harry has a fixation with dehumanizing those he doesn't like which, makes it easier for him to be happy in their downfall. It gets to the point where Peter is referred to as Wormtail and constantly described as looking a rat-ish, though Scabbers was always mentioned by name.)

That's not JKR, though. If she wanted to make a character wholly disliked I'm sure she could do it, but the fact that so many of us like Snape or Draco or anyone other 'bad guy' means that she, herself, sees good/interesting factors within them. Snape becomes more a character than an archetype only Harry realizes that he‘s more than a mean teacher (e.g. Harry learns that he was trying to protect the stone in PS/SS) and in HBP Harry even begins to identify with him, albeit unknowingly.

Harry can’t be used by JKR because he’s so quickly prejudiced. He can never give a fair and balanced account of things since he things are happening to him. She doesn’t use *Harry* to spout her beliefs, but *Hermione*. Hermione, whose ideas are the most consistently unpopular, is also the most disliked in her house and year. Hermione who in her first few months at Hogwarts was an outsider and probably saw a lot of the great Gryffindor house’s faults. Who, once she does get friends, she really gets friends: one is a pureblood from an established, if poor, family and the other the ’boy-who-lived. She’s on the fast track to being popular herself - all she needs is a lesson in fashion, some hair tips and toning down of her rules-are-cool speeches and she’d be set.

What’s interesting about Hermione is that she doesn’t become popular. Despite helping ‘save’ the wizarding world, winning Gryffindor tons of points, going with Viktor Krum and being paired with Harry Potter she’s never really part of the group. Unlike Harry, she doesn’t assimilate into the Gryffindor house and the wizarding world at large. She’s brisk, effective, and logical in a world where the McGonagalls are exceptions and Flitwicks the rule. Hermione’s also passionate in a house where few are passionate about anything other than Quidditch. She concerns herself with Neville the-almost-squib. She doesn’t have any girl friends, she’s not particularly interested in great adventures, and doesn’t find the Twins funny. I’m reminded of the telescope that gave her a black-eye and the canary creams fed to Neville - the outsiders are the only Gryffindors that are the butt of the Twins’ jokes.

cont.

[likethemodel.livejournal.com]

JKR shows the big controversies in the wizarding world through Harry's eyes because a) he's the main character and b) because he's wonderfully set up to see two-sides of every coin. Both his parents are wizards so he doesn't have the stigma of being a muggleborn, but he was raised by muggles so he knows their culture. He's great friends with a werewolf and a half-giant, but he's also privy to the terrible things werewolves and giants can do. He doesn't have any real and clear answer nor a true stake in any of it as opposed to Hermione. But, he's not blind to it like Ron.

The house-elf plot-line is conflicted because Harry is conflicted. He wants to think the house-elves are happy as they make him happy, but he can't deny that some have terrible lives because his first encounter was with Dobby. He might've even forgot about that except that JKR placed Dobby *at Hogwarts*. In Harry's home, where he helps Harry and is a constant reminder of the reality of servitude. Harry sees Hermione’s behavior as ridiculous because it alienates her from the group (though to be fair a lot of what she does is extreme) and he feels comfortable in thinking Hermione is mad because Ron (and by extension all other normal wizards) think she’s crazy, too.

Hagrid's comment is interesting because he's usually someone to get behind a cause like that. But, I think he sees that house-elves need to wizards to survive. They are beings who don't live in forests or underwater, and while they have magic they can't use wands. Most of the wizarding world won't consider paying a house-elf and it's most likely true that a freed house-elf is shamed one. There doesn't seem to be a great demand for them within the wealthier families who'd own them and so, no work. No work/family means no food and no shelter; a freed house-elf means a dead one.

[grasshopper.livejournal.com]

I don't dispute that the book is told from Harry's point of view; I'm just saying that there is often a large gap between what Rowling says and what she actually means. For example, Rowling means to make this a story about choices between good and evil, but she says things that can lead to a different impression (e.g. Tom's inherent badness as a result of birth and upbringing).

With S.P.E.W., however, what Rowling means and what she says surprisingly manage to match up. Within the text, she says to us that Harry thinks S.P.E.W. is silly, none of the Gryffindors will sign up, and Hagrid states that it's wrongheaded. From without the text, she makes the same point, choosing to demonstrate (e.g. through her portrayal of the house elves) just how wrong Hermione is. Which is to say that her authorial intent agrees with the actual ends she achieves.

I only brought up the Weasley twins because they are one of the big examples where (according to fandom, at least) this doesn't happen. There is a huge difference between what Rowling means for us to feel about the twins (like Harry, and the majority of the students, and Rowling herself, we are supposed to find them funny and endearingly mischievous) and what she actually says/conveys about them (all of their morally questionable acts).

Your point about Harry's dehumanising of his enemies actually speaks directly to my point. This is the main character, the one we are meant to sympathise with and to consider unambiguously Good. However, if you step back and analyse his feelings/actions as attributed to him by Rowling, you find that he's hotheaded, blinded by his own beliefs, and irritatingly self-righteous.

It's not that there's anything wrong, per se, with these ambiguities. If I felt that Rowling were making a point about how there are shades of grey instead of simple black-and-white-ness, that would be one thing. Instead it often feels like she's just a bit confused or simply unwilling to put in the work of creating coherence.

[pilly2009.livejournal.com]

Rowling means to make this a story about choices between good and evil, but she says things that can lead to a different impression (e.g. Tom's inherent badness as a result of birth and upbringing).

Yet it remains a story about the choices between good and evil. Just because one character seems to have become evil because of his heritage (and I still say we don't have enough information to determine this as the truth; we don't know whether it was Tom's upbringing, rather than his birth, that caused him to become evil), we can't discount all the other characters who have made choices that seem to go against their birthright. Draco's entire life now hinges on the choices he'll make in the seventh book, but up till now he's been the poster boy for birthright and upbringing. Sirius managed to rebel against his own birthright. Snape didn't seem to have been born into any particularly horrible circumstances; if the man in the Pensieve was his Muggle father, than he's already rejected that part of his birthright with no evidence that he has also become it. Barty Crouch Jr., Harry Potter, etc. There are at least five characters with choices for every Tom Riddle.

[pilly2009.livejournal.com]

The Weasley twins are a prime example of this; we are told that they are good because they side with the hero and oppose the bad guy, and because Harry likes them.

Where exactly are we told that the twins are good, in canon or even by JKR?

[grasshopper.livejournal.com]

Er, posted this in the place before.

I'm possibly using the wrong term when I say 'told', but I mean that we are meant by JKR to take away an image of the Weasley twins as being merry, amusing pranksters who oppose 'bad' people--like Draco, Umbridge, Snape, &c.--and are therefore 'good', both in Harry's estimation and in Rowling's. This contradicts the actual, quasi-sociopathic nature of their actions within the text.

I don't particularly care about the Weasleys, though; I'm just trying to make a point about authorial intent vs. actual effect, and they are one example of this problem that has been covered at length by ajhalluk, among others.

[grasshopper.livejournal.com]

Oh, and extra-textually, JKR places Fred & George in a list of characters (that also includes Lupin, Hagrid, Harry, Ron, Hermione) who are her favourites. And we know she only tends to like (in the personal, not the authorial sense) characters who are 'good'.

JKR likes to tell readers what to think and whom to like; she spends an awful lot of time trying to disabuse us of our affection for characters she considers 'bad' and telling us that we should, instead, love people who kill their siblings' pets for sport.

Which is where the dichotomy between what she wants us to see and what we actually see comes in. Either she is being lazy as an author, or else she really does find animal abuse, asphyxiation of people for being fat and mean, and doing great mental and physical damage to someone just for taking off House Points, to be both hilarious and morally correct.

[pilly2009.livejournal.com]

I'm possibly using the wrong term when I say 'told', but I mean that we are meant by JKR to take away an image of the Weasley twins as being merry, amusing pranksters who oppose 'bad' people--like Draco, Umbridge, Snape, &c.--and are therefore 'good', both in Harry's estimation and in Rowling's.

Well, the twins are merry pranksters who for the most part tend to be amusing (their dialogue, especially). What's to say that you cannot be both the life of the party and rotten little brats at the same time? I think it's canon that Draco is the latter, but most of fanon (and I suspect many of the Slytherins) are in agreement that he can be the former, also.

JKR's intent doesn't fail when she intends for us to get this picture, but this doesn't equate them to holy goodness. We know that while people find them amusing, they are not widely trusted. They are warned against all the time. Hermione is wary of taking so much as a jam tart from them. Ron had little problem in (correctly) believing them to be capable of blackmail, although the entire Weasley family was apparently shocked by Percy's decision to leave. Even Harry, he of the rose-tinted glasses, scoffs at the idea of their ever having been "innocent", and automatically (again, probably correctly) assumes that the twins have not told those first years in OotP what their candies will be doing to them. While none of them did much about the Montague incident, they weren't particularly charmed by it either. Liking the twins doesn't equate to trusting them; and while Harry may trust them with his life, it's a different thing to trust them not to prank him when his eyes are closed.

Oh, and extra-textually, JKR places Fred & George in a list of characters (that also includes Lupin, Hagrid, Harry, Ron, Hermione) who are her favourites. And we know she only tends to like (in the personal, not the authorial sense) characters who are 'good'.

And yet Hagrid's flaws have now been officially acknowledged by the canon (what with his three biggest fans dumping his class in HBP). Lupin's flaws have been acknowledged by JKR through interviews. Where's the indication that JKR is blind to the twins' flaws just because she happens to like them? However oblivious to her writing she may be considered, I can't believe she didn't draw the connection between the twins, Montague, Draco, and the Vanishing Cabinet, for instance.

JKR likes to tell readers what to think and whom to like; she spends an awful lot of time trying to disabuse us of our affection for characters she considers 'bad' and telling us that we should, instead, love people who kill their siblings' pets for sport.

Slightly OT, but here's where JKR's outside-the-book voice gets conflicted again; JKR's telling us that she likes these characters is not at all the same as her telling us that we should.

[pilly2009.livejournal.com]

you

Error: this should be 'they'.

[gmth.livejournal.com]

Filch, who had been lurking unnoticed in a far corner of the Hall, now approached Dumbledore, carrying a great wooden chest, encrusted with jewels.

Apropos of nothing, every time I read this line I'm reminded of a "fic" I read on ff.net once where the writer had taken a bunch of lines from canon and replaced one of the words with the word "penis." This was one of them, to wit:

Filch, who had been lurking unnoticed in a far corner of the Hall, now approached Dumbledore, carrying a great wooden penis, encrusted with jewels.

Heh. Heheh. *is 12*

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Heh--wait until you get to "The Weighing of the Wands."

[amythis.livejournal.com]

I swear, Ron's boycrush on Krum is one of the best things in this book.

Agreed. Maybe that's why he objects to Hermione/Krum. Why does Hermione get to go to the Ball with Krum? And poor Ron in his unflattering dress robes, while Hermione is all pretty in blue. (Except in the movie of course.)

[Dumbledore:] 'I hope and trust that your stay here will be both comfortable and enjoyable.'

Considering people have died in the Tournament, I actually don't blame Fleur for laughing. I'm not sure why she competes though.

Another instance of Harry being less affected by Veela magic than Ron. I'd also say that Harry is a bit of a late bloomer compared to Ron; in this book Harry's sexual awareness is just beginning, whereas Ron is already crushing on everything that moves.

Well, let's not forget Harry spilling water when he sees Cho, or his appreciation of extremely-handsome!Cedric. But yeah, puberty has hit Ron with a vengeance. Harry is at the "Oo, shiny" stage, while Ron is "purple."

Remembering [Mr Crouch] in his neat suit at the Quidditch World Cup, Harry thought he looked strange in wizard's robes. (224)

"You look different with clothes."

Filch, who had been lurking unnoticed in a far corner of the Hall, now approached Dumbledore, carrying a great wooden chest, encrusted with jewels. It looked extremely old. (224)

Dumbledore refers to the chest as a "casket," suggesting death. (I'm vaguely remembering a Shakespeare play. Merchant of Venice? The one with a casket/chest.)

Also: Goblet/Hat OTP.

Well, if it's not Hufflepuff's Goblet.

I like Krum, I like that he's down-to-earth.

I told you, that Wonky Faint thing means he's a good person.

Again, I don't know if we're meant to agree with Hagrid or not. I find the house elf plotline immensely frustrating; I just can't tell where it's going.

I agree. Are we meant to feel that Hermione is right to be concerned about the elves, but her methods are bad? Or what?

'He fancies [Madame Maxime]!' said Ron incredulously. 'Well, if they end up having children, they'll be setting a world record -- bet any baby of theirs would weigh about a ton.' (235)
Before HBP, Hagrid was the only adult character canonically shown to pursue a romantic relationship.

I'm trying to think of another example, but all I can come up with is James/Lily and Percy/Penelope, which both started in school. And I guess we can't officially count adult!Sirius/adult!Remus, despite some moments in OtP.

I like that Ron immediately ships Hagrid/Maxime, as does Charlie a bit further on.

[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

I'm trying to think of another example, but all I can come up with is James/Lily and Percy/Penelope, which both started in school.

Arthur and Molly apparently met at school too.

I'm not sure why she competes though.

'Ze honour for our schools! A thousand Galleons in prize money' come up in the next chapter, digging into my word copy.

[amythis.livejournal.com]

Arthur and Molly apparently met at school too.

Yes. So maybe it is significant who Harry etc. pair up with in school. School romances may mean a lifetime commitment in their world.

Good points about Fleur.

[caleythia.livejournal.com]

Dumbledore refers to the chest as a "casket," suggesting death. (I'm vaguely remembering a Shakespeare play. Merchant of Venice? The one with a casket/chest.)

I've wondered about that. Casket used to just refer to a box used to store/hold something. That's a rather archaic usage though. Was Jo using the old fahsinoned term, or was she trying to foreshadow the end of the tournament?

[amythis.livejournal.com]

If she's foreshadowing, does Dumbledore know/suspect someone will die? I mean, he knows the track record of the Tournament.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

The Beauxbatons kids are distant and beautiful, like Cho. The Durmstrang kids are associated with the Dark Arts. (Nice of someone to fill them in on this stuff so that they'd pick the right seats.)

Yeah, how do they know this? Would they all be Sorted into these places? And isn't it kind of funny the way Gryffindor and Hufflepuff always seem like the "best" houses somehow in canon--even here Harry mentions how Gryffindor and Hufflepuff always got on well. I can't help but feel like they're the best at being British, somehow, especially with Hermione's immediate bristling at Fleur's accusation of comfort (which, as I said above, I do take as being connected to national pride and not just the idea the BB girls have taken all the boys) and Ron's bemusement at French food.

Another instance of Harry being less affected by Veela magic than Ron. I'd also say that Harry is a bit of a late bloomer compared to Ron; in this book Harry's sexual awareness is just beginning, whereas Ron is already crushing on everything that moves.

And yet somehow in sixth year he's held up as experienced by Ginny. Ron acts more like an idiot because he's attracted to girls, while Harry pays more attention to the things straight guys miss. "Love the hair!"

I'd forgotten that the Goblet was plain-looking. Something about these descriptions put me in mind of the Holy Grail.

It does sound like that. The true "best" come out of something plain on the outside--a gilded goblet would show it was judging on the wrong things.

Karkaroff is always very solicitous of Krum, his star pupil. Krum seems uninterested in Karkaroff's attentions. I like Krum, I like that he's down-to-earth.

I love that Karkaroff is solicitous of Krum while dissing the other students. Where's the Draco/Poliakoff?

Hermione still hasn't talked to the elves yet, but this is the first time she's (unknowingly) brought up elf welfare to a non-human, and he's very opposed to her ideas. Again, I don't know if we're meant to agree with Hagrid or not. I find the house elf plotline immensely frustrating; I just can't tell where it's going.

I wonder if it's that, knowing that JKR says that Hermione is a lot like her at that age, if she's just giving her an intentionally impossible situation to rail against and have no effect. She herself may have felt ultimately frustrated in this area. Really, I'm sure that a lot of times people who start off with Hermione's attitude of a clear right and wrong *do* wind up feeling like those people they're trying to help just *want* to be oppressed, the way they're making things difficult.

[likethemodel.livejournal.com]

Perhaps JKR seats the two schools at those tables to bring a feel of all four houses to the tournament. Gryffindor and Hufflepuff have the two actual Hogwarts champions, but Slytherin and Ravenclaw also host the other two. Of course that's a meta explanation and wouldn't work in the plot, but it's a thought.

[lanjelin.livejournal.com]

Maybe Maxine and Karkaroff told their students where to sit? Perhaps it's their preference that's being shown here.

[conuly]

Y'know, Ron/Vicky *would* explain why he gets so very upset when Hermione writes to him....

[pilly2009.livejournal.com]

The colour drained from Karkaroff's face as Harry watched. A terrible look of mingled fury and fear came over his face.

'You!' he said, staring at Moody as though unsure he was really seeing him. (227)

Wow, I totally missed that. The fury is interesting, too...I'm guessing it came from the six months he spent evading Moody before he was caught.

The Beauxbatons kids are distant and beautiful, like Cho. The Durmstrang kids are associated with the Dark Arts. (Nice of someone to fill them in on this stuff so that they'd pick the right seats.)

Actually, it makes me wonder if the other schools also have a House-sorting system, or if this is unique to Hogwarts. If it is, then perhaps the prejudice/stereotype of each House is infamous across Europe.

[lycoris.livejournal.com]

I always get the impression that with the house-elf plot line, it's something you're sort of meant to decide for yourself. All viewpoints are given and we have to decide which one is "right" or "valid." I think Hermione's is the better moral standpoint but I'd want to understand the history of hous-elves - where they came from and so on - before I actually decided for myself regarding their rights. It's something I like about Harry Potter - there are little things that we're supposed to think about instead of being spoon-fed.

[skelkins.livejournal.com]

Hermione still hasn't talked to the elves yet, but this is the first time she's (unknowingly) brought up elf welfare to a non-human, and he's very opposed to her ideas. Again, I don't know if we're meant to agree with Hagrid or not.

It seems to me that (ironically, given his own mixed heritage) Hagrid is pretty consistently portrayed in these books as a true believer in the primacy of "blood."

When he first meets Harry in the first book, he says that Harry will of course be a good wizard because "With a mum an' dad like yours, what else would yeh be?" -- although given what we later learn about the existence of Squibs, this is on the face of it a pretty nonsensical statement. He claims that the Malfoys have "bad blood." He is dismissive towards Muggles. And, although this is getting ahead of ourselves, he will also deliver that "no matter what people say, blood is important" line in OotP.

So given all of that, I don't find it terribly surprising that Hagrid shows resistance to the notion that the House Elf ethos might be cultural, rather than inborn. I think that Hermione just made a very poor choice in seeking Hagrid as an ally: of all of the characters on the "good side" in these books, I'd say that he's the one most consistently depicted as a believer in 'nature over nurture.'

Foreign schools and Hogwarts houses

[(Anonymous)]

Nice of someone to fill them in on this stuff so that they'd pick the right seats.

While it does not at all explain why they would know where to go, JKR has placed them according to the elements, again, and I think we're clearly meant to associate them with the house they sit with. Beauxbatons flying through the air to get there, even wearing Ravenclaw blue, while Durmstrang comes through the water, and ends up at Slytherin.

- Clara