pursuit and rejection of tradition in xf and hp

[pauraque_bk]

Happy birthday to spican! This post isn't specifically a birthday present, but I have a feeling it may appeal to you, all the same. :)

This is expanded from a comment I left in black_dog's journal.

In X-Files, I write het. Despite the fact that there's a big XF slash fandom, and despite the fact that I'm a queer male myself, everything I write in XF is het. But the minute I got into Harry Potter, I started slashing it. And I had no idea why.

X-Files, when it came down to it, was a show of overtly heterosexual themes. You've got Mulder and Scully at the center, exploring roles and relationships of _men and women_, specifically. Superficially, the two reverse the stereotypical gender roles: Scully is rational and Mulder is an idealist. They begin as colleagues and friends, and neither is involved in a sexual relationship. This appears at first to be a rejection of heterosexual tradition.

However, as the series continues, it moves closer and closer to embracing that tradition. Many of the themes and plot threads involve reproduction, motherhood, and fatherhood. Scully may still not be a stereotypical woman, but she becomes The Woman, in the metaphorical vocabulary of the show: The world lives or dies dependent on her fertility, her ability to be a mother. Mulder and Scully become a couple.

And at the very core you've got Mulder's search for his sister -- his attempt to repair the damage to his traditional, heterosexual family. That's what he's searching for. And at the end of the series, like it or not, that's what he's arrived at, or something near to it. It's presented as a reachable and *desirable* goal.

The Harry Potter series starts off with a similar idea -- Harry's lost his traditional family. He wants it back. But the series denies that to him at every turn. In the first book, he sees his family in the Mirror of Erised, and is pulled away from it with the warning from Dumbledore that men have gone mad wishing for what they can't have. He has the message delivered again and again: His parents are dead. His traditional family is in the past, and he's not going to have it again. This point was driven home harder than ever in Book 5.

Harry's story is about turning away from the normal and traditional -- that's shown through since sentence one, where we're immediately plunged into mocking descriptions of the Dursleys' desperate bids for normalcy. Major heterosexual relationships in the series usually fail in some way -- James and Lily, Hagrid and Maxime, Harry and Cho... They can also be overtly sinister and negative, as with the Lestranges, the Malfoys, and the Dursleys. The Weasleys are one exception, and the only one I can think of.

XF is a story about trying to regain the traditional family. HP is a story about putting the traditional family behind you.

I think that's why I slash HP.

Or I could be talking out of my ass. :)

Comments

[deslea.livejournal.com]

XF is a story about trying to regain the traditional family. HP is a story about putting the traditional family behind you.

I love, love, love you! You've hit on it, completely. XF has played with male-female prototypes almost exclusively. Everything from the Adam and Eve metaphors for the various supersoldier prototypes, to the male and female colonists sent in the 1940s, to the creepy-ass boy-girl drone pairings in Herrenvolk - it was all about boys and girls making love, war and babies, or all three. Very archetypal het-stuff there. To me, the "big picture" of the XF universe just isn't a slashy one, as much as I acknowledge the usable subtext in small for people who want to take it in that direction.

Deslea, also slashy-inclined who almost never slashes XF...

reposting with the stupidfuck icon, because I apparently can't type

[pauraque]

Oh, the Adam and Eve metaphors, I wasn't even thinking about that. But definitely, yes.

I'm not knocking XF slash either. I like it (and there's certainly adequate subtext for it), it just doesn't speak to the heart of the show the way het does, to me.

[lizbee.livejournal.com]

I think it's too early to say that James/Lily has failed -- I'd see it as a successful relationship, since they apparently managed to overcome differences and personality flaws and made each other happy. But your line of reasoning is interesting -- I like it.

[pauraque]

Well, James/Lily failed in the sense that they were destroyed. (Whether death = failure is a whole topic unto itself, of course.) Something was created out of that destruction, but it wasn't really James and Lily that made that happen, it was the collision of powers between Lily and Voldemort. It was a good/evil thing, or more accurately a love/anti-love thing, rather than a male/female thing.

[woolf.livejournal.com]

I think those are really good points. I've never been particularly into fandoms other than HP, but I can definitely see what you mean about Xfiles being not particularly good for slashing.

Yeah. Ok. I have nothing really valuable to add. :P

[spican.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the birthday wishes, Eo! *hug* And also, for an interesting post. I'm not very conversant with HP, having only read so far as PoA, but what you say about the main X-files focus definitely rings true.

I've got to add, though, that much of the way that the X-files deals with family in the context of fertility and motherhood puts me off, specifically because I think they carried Scully's procreative martyrhood too far but also more generally echoed in the show's treatment of female characters. I can see that the het genre is the more obvious way to explore the focus on a heterosexual family structure in the show's ideology, but I can also see how other writers again might find writing slash either an escape from the stereotyped female suffering on the show, or a subversive way to turn the tables on the mythology. I think the structures of the show that you write about can be explored from both the slash and the het genre in either a passive or an active way.

Not that I don't see your reasoning, and I even think I could apply it to my own writing. (Then again, one day I *will* write that Krycek/Jeffrey story. :)

[pauraque]

I've got to add, though, that much of the way that the X-files deals with family in the context of fertility and motherhood puts me off, specifically because I think they carried Scully's procreative martyrhood too far but also more generally echoed in the show's treatment of female characters.

Sure. It bothered me too, actually. I was a noromo from season one, so I didn't _want_ to see Mulder and Scully get together and start a family, and I didn't _want_ to see Scully set up as the Madonna figure, but that's what we got. I can certainly understand why writers want to subvert it.

Not that I don't see your reasoning, and I even think I could apply it to my own writing. (Then again, one day I *will* write that Krycek/Jeffrey story. :)

Heh, yeah, a lot of my unpublished XF fic has slashy undertones (mostly Krycek/Jeffrey and Krycek/CSM), though it doesn't emerge as a main theme.

[lolaraincoat.livejournal.com]

*bows deeply*

*claps hands in glee*

So smart! This certainly helps explain why I like reading HP fic better than any other kind. Even the het relationships, as you point out, are ... troubled. (Even Lily/James as of Book 5, right?) And I can read the series as about giving up the dream of the pure or authentic family/kin group. Lots of failed parents there too -- including Dumbledore as of book 5.

Smart!

[pauraque]

Lots of failed parents there too -- including Dumbledore as of book 5.

Good point! Dumbledore sets himself up as a father figure -- and it backfires spectacularly.

[pauraque]

By the way -- I saw a guy the other day who had a t-shirt with the picture you use for your icon. My first thought was "Lola!" :)

[idlerat.livejournal.com]

Still great points. And I'll add, that some early recognition of this may be one of the things that drove me to stop watching XF in season two, after being rabidly devoted to the show in its first 10 weeks or so. The promise of gender gaming was really undermined. And I think one of the things that made it worse was that, completely unlike HP, it had a veneer of hipness.

I do think that in mass culture works often compensate for their own subversiveness, and likewise subvert their own normality. This is a complicated point, and I don't know that I'm fully prepared to spell it out, but it leads to a lot of layered contradictions. Like in the case of the beginning of HP 1: this was actually, in so many ways, a terribly normalizing book. Even the critique of the Dursleys was normalizing. It felt very mediocre to me when I first read it: the thing that fascinated me was how well it anticipated its young readers' ideas of How Things Should Be. Including drawing on the stock children's story characters of the bourgeois couple who care more about the furniture than they do about the kids.

Anyway I'm not disagreeing you; I think you prove your basic point quite definitively. I'm just saying I think there are layers and layers to the interplay of tradition and subversion in these books, and that one of the elements in play is literary style.

[pauraque]

I do think that in mass culture works often compensate for their own subversiveness, and likewise subvert their own normality.

This sounds interesting, but I can't say I really understand what you're saying. Could you possibly elaborate on what this means?

[idlerat.livejournal.com]

See my lj for response.

[sophia-helix.livejournal.com]

Hm. Interesting ideas. Now, I've often heard Mulder/Scully referred to as the only slash pairing involving characters of opposite genders, and I think that's certainly true for the first four seasons. *g* The subversion of pairing two characters whose creator didn't want them paired, the equal balance of power between them, and the deep friendship with only tiny hints of romance, all parallel a traditional m/m slash relationship. So maybe that's why, with the exception of the thriving permutations of Mulder, Krycek, and Skinner, we had a lot of hetfic written -- it didn't fall under the traditional rubric of het.

I'm interested in your take on HP, since I'm just barely, *barely* into the fandom, but have continuing problems with it. Part of it is that the two biggest slash pairings (Harry/Draco, Remus/Sirius) hold zero appeal for me, and much of the het is just shmoopy kid stuff, part of it is that I have very specific pairings I like in that world, and none of them are very popular. But seeing your idea of the "traditional" family getting broken down really intrigues me. Maybe I'll have to take another look.

.m

[pauraque]

I've often heard Mulder/Scully referred to as the only slash pairing involving characters of opposite genders

Heh! That's great. And yes, it was certainly true at first.

I'm interested in your take on HP, since I'm just barely, *barely* into the fandom, but have continuing problems with it. Part of it is that the two biggest slash pairings (Harry/Draco, Remus/Sirius) hold zero appeal for me, and much of the het is just shmoopy kid stuff, part of it is that I have very specific pairings I like in that world, and none of them are very popular.

I've been talking about these issues lately with shadowluck and maidenjedi. In HP, the fundamental cultural distinction in the fandom is not between slash and het, but between kid characters and adult characters. (This is partly born out by the fact that in this fandom, you can say "ship" when you mean "slash", and no one bats an eye.) Trio shippers and Draco shippers generally share a fannish culture, in their vocabulary, the types of stories they write, and the assumptions they bring to the table. Writers who play with the adult characters generally have an entirely different set of assumptions, and write an entirely different kind of story.

H/D and SB/RL don't do much for me either. What are your preferred pairings? My two current WIPs are Snape/Filch and Peter/Ron, so I won't judge you. :)

[sophia-helix.livejournal.com]

In HP, the fundamental cultural distinction in the fandom is not between slash and het, but between kid characters and adult characters.

Interesting. I'd noticed the difference, of course, but didn't realize it ran quite so deep. I wonder what it says about who prefers which.

Trio shippers and Draco shippers generally share a fannish culture, in their vocabulary, the types of stories they write, and the assumptions they bring to the table. Writers who play with the adult characters generally have an entirely different set of assumptions, and write an entirely different kind of story.

I've noticed the different kinds of stories, but never really put a finger on why kid stories work for me and I almost never read adult ones. I think it's because, deep down, I'm a very shallow reader/viewer -- I tend to ship whoever's immediately presented as shippable. So in XF that was M/S, in Buffy that was B/S ('til I grew out of the OTP mindset), and in HP it's Trio pairings.

Adult HP stories don't appeal to me very much, I think, because they're supporting characters, seen almost exclusively through the eyes of the main, kid characters. I'm just not very good at seeing, or being interested in, the lives of non-main characters. Same reason why I yawn at Seamus/Dean fic, for example, or James/Lily. I'm always thinking "Who are you? Why do I care?"

Shallow, I know.

What are your preferred pairings? My two current WIPs are Snape/Filch and Peter/Ron, so I won't judge you. :)

LOL. I started a story along the latter lines once -- Ron freaking out after the end of PoA, thinking about all those years he spent cuddling with a Deatheater. *g*

My biggest, most shameful pairing kink is H/Hr/R. Especially messed up ones, where Ron loves Harry best, Harry loves Hermione best, and Hermione loves Ron best, or some other combination in which everyone's just a little left out.

Other than that, I'll read Hr/R (although I like it better in the books than in fic), am constantly on the hunt for H/R (a near-impossibility), and am recently getting into H/Hr for the sheer cussedness of the pairing. *g* ("I want a main character het pairing, but not the canonical one!")

And I'll read Snape/kid pairings, probably because Snape is the sexy little black Krycek-dress of HP fandom.

Besides that...meh. There are too damn many possible pairings, and I rarely like any of them. The only Ginny pairings I ever read and liked were incest ones, which is weird and embarassing, and I've never had a smidgeon of interest in Maurauderfic or anything with a Slytherin.

I am doomed to read only the Sugar Quill. *g*

.m

[pauraque]

I wonder what it says about who prefers which.

It seems that in general, younger fans write/read the kids, and older fans write/read the adults. Of course, there's crossover -- as witness the fact that you're slightly older than me. I wouldn't say that people who are interested in the adult characters are "more mature", though I have heard that argued. For me, it's part of a pattern of being interested in the "fringe" characters in every fandom I come across. Central characters hold less interest for me in fanfic, because they get plenty of attention in canon.

Adult HP stories don't appeal to me very much, I think, because they're supporting characters, seen almost exclusively through the eyes of the main, kid characters.

And this is exactly why many people say they _do_ like the adults: They find that Harry's narrative voice is a shallow interpretation, and wonder what's really going on in the heads of these characters he doesn't entirely understand.

am constantly on the hunt for H/R

I like that pairing too. I read a really dark, sick one recently that I loved... though it sounds like that sort of thing might not be to your taste...?

am recently getting into H/Hr for the sheer cussedness of the pairing. *g* ("I want a main character het pairing, but not the canonical one!")

Huh, that's interesting. So, on your side of the fandom, it's the general consensus now that R/Hr is "canon", and H/Hr is an impossibility? Last I heard, the debate was still raging. I don't have a preference, myself. I'd be happier if the Trio didn't pair off at all, in canon.

And I'll read Snape/kid pairings, probably because Snape is the sexy little black Krycek-dress of HP fandom.

Really? From the rest of what you've said, this surprises me. For myself, I find that SS/HG is usually boring, and SS/HP, badly executed. I have interest in SS/DM, though again, most of it is bad. I would love some good SS/RW, but I haven't found any yet.

It occurs to me that incest fic holds the same place in HP fandom that slash holds in some other fandoms.

[sophia-helix.livejournal.com]

I'll preface this by explaining that my preferences in HP are not only unlike my preferences in any other fandom, but also do not make a whole lot of logical sense. *g*

It seems that in general, younger fans write/read the kids, and older fans write/read the adults.

Right, that does seem to be the basic difference, and it's why I feel slightly guilty about my interests. I always have this vague feeling like I "should" be reading/writing adult fic, because that's what mature and cool people do. I kind of get the same vibes about m/m slash.

For me, it's part of a pattern of being interested in the "fringe" characters in every fandom I come across. Central characters hold less interest for me in fanfic, because they get plenty of attention in canon.

Right, and I feel slightly guilty about the fact that I usually only read and write about the most obvious characters. Again, like m/m slash, I think it may just be a thing you're wired to do. I always liken myself to bisexuality on the slash thing -- it's 'about the person.' I have a few slash pairings that I'm interested in, but I wouldn't call myself a slasher. Ditto fringe characters: I've hooked onto a couple, like Tara and Anya, but not many.

am constantly on the hunt for H/R

I like that pairing too. I read a really dark, sick one recently that I loved... though it sounds like that sort of thing might not be to your taste...?

And again, my preferences don't make logical sense. I love dark! I eat darkfic for breakfast. *g* Show me the way to the fic.

Huh, that's interesting. So, on your side of the fandom, it's the general consensus now that R/Hr is "canon", and H/Hr is an impossibility? Last I heard, the debate was still raging.

Oh, don't take my opinions as fact. Like I said, I am barely into the fandom at all. I've just noticed that, whenever I look for H/Hr, it's harder to find than R/Hr. And, of course, the Power of the Sugar Quill is legendary. *g*

And I'll read Snape/kid pairings, probably because Snape is the sexy little black Krycek-dress of HP fandom.

Really? From the rest of what you've said, this surprises me.

I think the secret to some of my preferred pairings is 'kink.' Like incest. Like threesomes. Like Giles/Scooby pairings over on Buffy. So yeah, a teacher/student thing piques my interest. I'm not proud of this. *g*

For the most part, really, I find myself reading in HP to satisfy some kind of desire or kink, rather than just reading everything and enjoying the good writing. Because it's organized so much by character and pairing, because there are so many possibilities, and because there's such a large, varied amount of fic out there, it seems to lend itself to that type of reading. Very different from prior fandoms of mine.

It occurs to me that incest fic holds the same place in HP fandom that slash holds in some other fandoms.

Hm. I'd compare it more to RPS, actually, which I don't think really exists in HP. Same kind of automatic "EW!" moral responses from some people, same kind of marginalization, same kind of staunch defenders.

.m

[pauraque]

Right, that does seem to be the basic difference, and it's why I feel slightly guilty about my interests. I always have this vague feeling like I "should" be reading/writing adult fic, because that's what mature and cool people do. I kind of get the same vibes about m/m slash.

Well, as I recently said to a young Draco shipper: We Snape fans are every bit as petty and callow as Draco fans; we merely employ heavier sarcasm.

The superior attitude I sometimes see from adult-writers in HP fandom (and slashers in other fandoms) is completely bogus, if you ask me. It's that old "I'm subversive/alternative and therefore cool" crap. At first it comes from insecurity, but after a certain point it becomes just plain snotty. It's like the in the gay community when people rag on "breeders". I don't like to hear that.

I always liken myself to bisexuality on the slash thing -- it's 'about the person.'

Yeah, me too. I don't slash things just for the sake of slashing them, I just write the characters/pairings that speak to me.

And again, my preferences don't make logical sense. I love dark! I eat darkfic for breakfast. *g* Show me the way to the fic.

"Contrition" by Rach. H/R. It's at RS.org, so NC-17, obviously. The imagery is wonderfully sensory and visceral, which is one of the main things I look for in a story. And I love the way this author uses Draco. You'll see what I mean.

For the most part, really, I find myself reading in HP to satisfy some kind of desire or kink, rather than just reading everything and enjoying the good writing.

This is a very common attitude in HP readers, I think. Gen doesn't have a place here the way casefiles do in XF. Less value is placed on artistic prose (though I've read HP stories whose poetry rivals anything in XF). I wonder if it has to do with the canon models; I find XF to be far more stylistically sophisticated than HP.

Hm. I'd compare it more to RPS, actually, which I don't think really exists in HP. Same kind of automatic "EW!" moral responses from some people, same kind of marginalization, same kind of staunch defenders.

I think you're underestimating the degree of acceptance incest fic enjoys in HP. LM/DM and F/G are significant pairings, and I almost never hear them decried the way RPS is in XF fandom. The vociferous condemnation seems reserved for particular characters and pairings. I've seen people flamed for writing Peter genfic, Peter/James, and Snape/Hagrid, but never for writing incest.

[black-dog.livejournal.com]

You've probably already read it, but the recent article on the "queerness" of Harry Potter, by Michael Bronski, is probably the most extensive public take on this whole issue. I don't buy the article entirely -- I think his points about "Misrule" are overstated and misleading -- but he does a very decent job of opening up the parallels between wizarding "identity" and sexual identity. Where I would disagree with his thesis is that I think JKR uses the political and moral issues in the wizarding world to try to find ground for a more universal, tolerant morality, rather than simply celebrating disorder or deviance for its own sake. He seems to include that bit so that he can lead in and out with a provocative comment on how the evangelicals may "get it" in spite of themselves, but I think that's a strain, too.

I'm intrigued by the way your argument insists on the impossibility of Harry ever recovering a traditional family -- because I think this notion of a hard constraint creating differences between people is the key to saying JKR's morality is built on tolerance rather than on celebrating diversity for its own sake. People are as different as they need to be, rather than as they want to be, perhaps. It allows her to make a progressive case that is still moralistic at the root. And yes, I'm overreaching with this point, a bit, confident that you can punch holes in it if you choose and help me clarify it.

I wish I could comment on your X-Files points, but like idlerat, I gave up on the series a few seasons before the end, though somewhat later than he did. I tended to identify with the Smoking Man, though, who with his air of being a mediator among backstage powers, a person playing games within games and reserving his center for himself, was at least realatively the "queerest" of the major characters. It occurs to me that I have no idea how his story ended, while most people probably do.

Anyway, forgive me for rambling. I've scanned through your journal and find lots of fascinating stuff, including some things that I may go back and comment on -- so I've added you; let me know if you mind.

I'm not sure...

[(Anonymous)]

Harry's story is about turning away from the normal and traditional -- that's shown through since sentence one, where we're immediately plunged into mocking descriptions of the Dursleys' desperate bids for normalcy. Major heterosexual relationships in the series usually fail in some way -- James and Lily, Hagrid and Maxime, Harry and Cho... They can also be overtly sinister and negative, as with the Lestranges, the Malfoys, and the Dursleys. The Weasleys are one exception, and the only one I can think of.

I don't think your examples are enough. First of all, I'm not sure about your inclusion of "James and Lily", for two reasons. One, although they were not really close during most of their school years, you see Sirius and Remus talking about how that changed. Second, if you mean the fact that they were killed, I don't see how that is relevant. If the death (or murder) one or both of the partners is tantamount to a failed relationship, then would you apply that to SS/RL?

Hagrid/Maxime and Harry & Cho are potentially valid examples of your point. But they aren't decisive yet. He's 16. Whether he resumes dating her, or becomes interested in someone else, there is no certainty in this matter. The same goes for Hagrid and Maxime. We have no idea if or when she'll make a reappearance (although I don't find it likely).

"...the Lestranges, the Malfoys, and the Dursleys..." This cuts both ways. People do slash DEs, you know. In addition, I don't think that being 'partners in crime' automatically implies a poor relationship. I think that although there are fanon cliches in this area, especially concerning Narcissa, the fact of the matter is that, IMHO, there is enough common ground in both cases for a marriage to be successful. The too-prevalent fanon notion of arranged marriages in DE-sympathetic families has no canon basis. In all probability, there was a good degree of personal choice.

So I don't think your examples are sufficient to prove your point about slashy themes in the HP books.

Re: I'm not sure...

[pauraque]

I posted this right after having participated in a very long thread about slash-friendly readings of canon in black_dog's journal, here, so I didn't include a lot of points that were already talked to death over there. If you read that, you'll probably get a better idea of what I was talking about.

If the death (or murder) one or both of the partners is tantamount to a failed relationship, then would you apply that to SS/RL?

I assume you mean SB/RL. I do see your point, but SB/RL isn't canon, and even if you think it is, it's not part of a _pattern_ of negative or failed gay relationships. Even if you stretch this to assume that Harry had crushes on Cedric and Sirius and then they died, or that he has a crush on Malfoy and Malfoy hates him -- well, those relationships are subtext (if you believe in them), not text. Also, I didn't argue that there have to be positive examples of gay relationships in the books in order to justify saying that heterosexual archetypes are presented with a negative or hopeless tone.

People do slash DEs, you know.

As, in fact, do I.

In addition, I don't think that being 'partners in crime' automatically implies a poor relationship.

Nor do I, but one of the only solid marriages we see belongs to villainous, even evil characters. I see a counter-example in that. Fanon has nothing to do with it. I didn't say anything about arranged marriages.

So I don't think your examples are sufficient to prove your point about slashy themes in the HP books.

The thread I pointed to above did that far more effectively than my little summary here, if you're interested in having the point proved to you.

But I'm not sure you entirely took my point. I wasn't _trying_ to prove that slash is the only valid reading. I was saying that traditional heterosexual archetypes are not presented positively, or as something attainable that you want to shoot for in life. Just because you don't fit into the archetype of the nuclear family doesn't mean you're gay -- that's just where I take it in fanfic.