GoF 30

[pauraque_bk]

GoF 30: The Pensieve

I was sure JKR had relatively recently said some things about how Pensieves work, but now I can't find it. Was it in an interview?

'I wanted to talk to you, Professor,' Harry said quickly, looking at Dumbledore, who gave him a swift, searching look. (505)


'Professor,' Harry said at last, 'do you think he's getting stronger?'

'Voldemort?' said Dumbledore, looking at Harry over the Pensieve. It was the characteristic, piercing look Dumbledore had given him on other occasions, and always made Harry feel as though Dumbledore was seeing right through him, in a way that even Moody's magical eye could not. (523)

This is Legilimency, of course. In the first instance, Dumbledore gives him the Look before leaving him alone with the Pensieve. Given the conveniently open cupboard door and D's subsequent relaxed reaction to Harry's snooping, I wonder if whatever he saw in Harry's mind made him decide it was the right moment to let him find out about the memories that were in there.

In the second case, D's sudden (and unnecessary) "Voldemort?" made me wonder if D was looking for some sign of V's influence in Harry's mind.

[Moody:] 'Let's hear [Karkaroff's] information, I say, and throw him straight back to the Dementors.'

Dumbledore made a small noise of dissent through his long, crooked nose.

'Ah, I was forgetting ... you don't like the Dementors, do you, Albus?' said Moody, with a sardonic smile.

'No,' said Dumbledore calmly, 'I'm afraid I don't. I have long felt the Ministry is wrong to ally itself with such creatures.' (511)

Dumbledore may have several reasons for believing so. The word 'wrong' suggests a moral opposition to cruel and unusual punishment. It could be that. But there are practical reasons to oppose torture, too: Information extracted from a prisoner in agony may be inaccurate. It's interesting that the names Karkaroff gives are all (as far as we know) actually Death Eaters, since you might expect someone in such a state of desperation to start throwing out any name he can think of.

Dumbledore may also be concerned that the Dementors can't be reliably controlled, as has since been proven to be so.

'Not yet!' cried Karkaroff, looking quite desperate. 'Wait, I have more! [...] Snape!' he shouted. 'Severus Snape.' (513)

Interesting that he doesn't name Snape right away, but waits until the last moment, until it's his only remaining option. Could be because he has/had a close relationship with Snape and would rather not sell him out unless he has to.

'I have given evidence already on this matter,' [Dumbledore] said calmly. 'Severus Snape was indeed a Death Eater. However, he rejoined our side before Lord Voldemort's downfall and turned spy for us, at great personal risk. He is now no more a Death Eater than I am.' (513)

I always loved that -- "no more than I am". OMG evil!Dumbledore!!1

Also, randomly, I think it's odd that V so often gets his preferred title 'Lord' affixed to his name, even by characters who have no reason to treat him with respect. (...or do they? Dun dun dunnnnn!)

(I should probably add that I don't actually think Dumbledore is secretly working with Voldemort. It just amuses me to think about.)

[Upon Ludo Bagman's name being cleared:]

One of the witches on the jury stood up.

'Yes?' barked Crouch.

'We'd just like to congratulate Mr Bagman on his splendid performance for England in the Quidditch match against Turkey last Saturday,' the witch said breathessly.

Mr Crouch looked furious. The dungeon was ringing with applause now. Bagman got to his feet and bowed, beaming. (515)

What do you guys think of this subplot? As usual in GoF, the mob is easily swayed... Does that mean Bagman is actually guilty of something? He acknowledges that he did pass information to a DE, but claims he thought Rookwood was "one of ours". Plausible? If so, what's the point JKR's trying to make here? The innocent only get justice if they're also popular (as Sirius presumably wasn't)?

'We have heard the evidence against you [Bellatrix, Crouch Jr, Rodolphus & Rabastan]. The four of you stand accused of capturing an Auror -- Frank Longbottom -- and subjecting him to the Cruciatus curse, believing him to have knowledge of the present whereabouts of your exiled master, He Who Must Not Be Named--' (516-517)

Why would they think Frank would have such information? Any reason besides him being an Auror?

[T]he woman with the heavy-lidded eyes looked up at Crouch and called, 'The Dark Lord will rise again, Crouch! Throw us into Azkaban, we will wait! He will reward us beyond any of his other supporters! We alone were faithful! We alone tried to find him!' (517)

I think Bella is being a little charitable to her co-prisoners here; she's obviously the real loyalist. Rabastan & Rodolphus are 'staring blankly' and 'looking nervous', and of course Crouch Jr is loudly throwing himself on the mercy of the court. I think Bellatrix is the only truly loyal DE, unless she, too, has some ulterior motive we don't know about yet.

Dumbledore placed his long hands on either side of the Pensieve and swirled it, rather as a gold prospector would swirl for fragments of gold ... and Harry saw his own face change smoothly into Snape's, who opened his mouth, and spoke to the ceiling, his voice echoing slightly. 'It's coming back ... Karkaroff's too ... stronger and clearer than ever...' (519)

I like the suggested connection between Harry and Snape, which surely goes deeper than Harry's scar reminding D of Snape's mark.

It isn't immediately apparent why the mark should be stronger "than ever", since Voldemort himself certainly isn't, not yet.

'No, I -- how did you know it woke me up over the summer?' said Harry, astonished.

'You are not Sirius' only correspondent,' said Dumbledore. 'I have also been in contact with him ever since he left Hogwarts last year. It was I who suggested the mountainside cave as the safest place for him to stay.' (521)

Well, I'd entirely forgotten about that. How does this affect the position that Sirius is behaving more responsibly than normal, if Dumbledore's been suggesting what he should do all this time? It's also interesting that Sirius doesn't bother to tell Harry that he's been repeating everything he says to Dumbledore.

'What made you think he'd really stopped supporting Voldemort, Professor?'

Dumbledore held Harry's gaze for a few seoncds, and then said, 'That, Harry, is a matter between Professor Snape and myself.' (524)

I don't know what I can say about this that hasn't already been said, except that since Dumbledore is now dead, the ways in which Harry can learn the Real Reason are more limited. More Pensieve scenes could be in the offing, or perhaps Snape could reveal the truth himself -- but can Harry believe it from him?


Previous GoF posts are saved in memories here.

Comments

[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

Given the conveniently open cupboard door and D's subsequent relaxed reaction to Harry's snooping

I suppose it would be hypocritical of him to object, considering that he's mind-reading him at that very moment. But it's quite amusing to see his actions and reaction to Harry's nosiness in juxtaposition with him implying Bertha Jorkins deserved a hexing, if not her final fate; for her curiosity.

[vvvexation.livejournal.com]

I don't think he thinks she deserved it, merely that she was taking too many risks and finally suffered negative consequences as a result. He specifically says to Harry in that scene something to the effect that there's nothing necessarily wrong with being curious but "we should exercise caution with our curiosity." I got the impression he meant because it's risky, not because it's wrong.

[pauraque]

Yeah, I agree. He mentions that we should exercise caution, and then immediately segues into the Bertha memory.

[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

I got the impression he meant because it's risky, not because it's wrong.

That's certainly in character for Dumbledore!

Still, I'd like to see some negative consequences for one of our 'heroes' for their snooping, and since Dumbledore is now ruled out; it would be interesting if Harry suffered some kind of setback for invading other's privacy.

[alya1989262.livejournal.com]

it would be interesting if Harry suffered some kind of setback for invading other's privacy
*cough*Snape's Worst Memory?*cough*

[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I considered that; but I think although it hurts him to see his dad being a jerk, it's not really a punishment for his own nosiness, as such; any more than say, Lily's better behaviour is a reward.

[lanjelin.livejournal.com]

This is kind of interesting, because I thought that what happened after him looking into Snape's pensieve was rather realistic; he got some unflattering info, and when he was discovered he had to face Snape's anger and subsequent refusal to continue the lessons. On top of that he felt guilty, and regretted his actions.

I don't know what else you would think was needed? (And I know this might not sound the way I want it to in writing; I'm just curious. I'm truly not trying to start an argument here!)

[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

I mentioned in this thread below my opinion on the ceasing of Snape's lessons, just fyi (so I don't spam pauraque with the same comment twice!)
http://pauraque.livejournal.com/233951.html?thread=3627231#t3627231

As for Harry's guilt, looking over the chapter, I can't see much.
He seems upset that his father was arrogant (and that he was wrong in doubting Snape on that particular issue) and he identifies with being bullied (presumably from a time not described in canon, pre-Hogwarts; since we don't often see Harry being victimised in front of a 'circle of onlookers' with much frequency - I'd say Ron or Draco get embarrassed much more.)
But guilt? To my recollection, Harry doesn't regret spying on the Pensieve(while taking advantage of Montague's state) so much as having his father's character revealed to him.

Of course, fandom opinions on character's feelings can vary wildly. I've seen Harry's reaction to the Sectumsempra curse and the Trio's to the news of Montague; for example, described from sociopathically uncaring to saint-like compassionate.

[lanjelin.livejournal.com]

Well, I saw the comment, but I must admit that I didn't quite follow the logic. I mean, however you might interpret the narrative the fact that he still doesn't get his much needed lessons still stands, right?

I do think Snape is overreacting, but it's no question as to what the cause is. Put your nose in other people's personal business, and they'll be upset.

As for Harry's guilt, looking over the chapter, I can't see much.

I wasn't actually thinking of scenes of overwhelming remorse, but rather the fact that Harry doesn't try to make Snape continue to teach him. he shies away and doesn't try to put the blame on Snape (for a change) and to me this implies a sense of shame.

I mean, he's not going to feel awful, since he dislikes Snape so much. He doesn't really care about Snape's feelings, and I daresay Snape isn't overly concerned with harry's mental well-being either. After all, none of them are a saint, but rather two stubborn people with a grudge.

Also, since Snape has been spending their lessons digging through Harry's worst memories over and over again, he might think that that Snape could get past it as he does. Possibly Harry is more resilient than Snape when it comes to these things?

presumably from a time not described in canon, pre-Hogwarts; since we don't often see Harry being victimised in front of a 'circle of onlookers' with much frequency - I'd say Ron or Draco get embarrassed much more.

Oh, for sure. We have seen quite a few flashbacks where Harry gets hunted and abused by both Dudley and his gang and his own relatives, but all that changed when he got his first real friends. Now at the times when half, or most of the school hate/fear him, or just thinks he's insane he's got his friends for support. I'm guessing part of why Snape joined the Death Eaters was that he got something resembling friendship from them.

Of course, fandom opinions on character's feelings can vary wildly.

Yeah, I don't know where this insistance that Harry must either be a sociopath or a saint is coming from. He can be pretty nasty (and has a lovely sarcastic streak that surprisingly many seem to have missed), he cares about his friends, and he's brave, though sometimes foolhardy, he thinks fast on his feet, but is often incredibly oblivious to some things, and he follows his feelings.

These are only a few of his traits I can think of. Why make him a two-dimensional hero or villain when there's actually a full personality right there in the books?

[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

Possibly Harry is more resilient than Snape when it comes to these things?

Almost certainly. Snape's not exactly known for his maturity at the best of times.
Mind you, looking through someone's memories as part of a lesson, and doing so on your own time might be viewed as different, for both. Sort of like the difference between someone hexing you as part of the DA, and doing it for fun.

but rather the fact that Harry doesn't try to make Snape continue to teach him.

Hmm. I would consider this mostly because he dislikes the lessons. When he was being made to take them by Dumbledore and thus Snape, he had little choice; once Snape releases him from them, so to speak; why would he try to make him continue?
If Dumbledore ever brings it up, he can (and does? I don't recollect their discussion of this, but as I mentioned, it's not clear whether Dumbledore is even aware of the Pensieve peeking. If he is, it apparently wasn't Harry that told him. Of course, given Dumbledore's reaction to Harry looking in his pensieve, and his own interest in other people's thoughts; I doubt he'd consider it the invasion Snape does.) just claim that Snape didn't wish to teach him any more.

he shies away and doesn't try to put the blame on Snape (for a change)

Well. Iirc, post-Pensieve, he's desperate to find a way to make Snape the one to blame for his treatment in the memory; which is his primary focus, rather than current day Snape's reaction. So I would consider it probable and IC for him to try to put the blame on others (in this case Snape) rather than examining his own behaviour. It's just in this case, he's not thinking about the circumstances leading up to his discovery of his father's behaviour at all.

I don't think as well of Harry's character as you appear to, but I agree, there's no need for dumbing down characters to either Good or Evil.

[lanjelin.livejournal.com]

Mind you, looking through someone's memories as part of a lesson, and doing so on your own time might be viewed as different, for both.

There certainly is a difference. I think that we could also take into account the fact that Harry isn't looking for ammunition in his ongoing battle with Snape, but rather suspects that Snape is hiding some particular piece of information that concerns Harry directly. I'm not saying that intent is more important than the consequences, but that they both matter.

I still think what Harry did was wrong, but understandable given the situation.

When he was being made to take them by Dumbledore and thus Snape, he had little choice; once Snape releases him from them, so to speak; why would he try to make him continue?

Yeah, I'm not exactly sure about this myself. It's just the way he thinks about it - nothing palpable, just a feeling - that gives me the impression that he's not happy with what he did. He doesn't tell anyone about it, not even his closest friends, despite how badly it could hurt Snape's pride.

Of course, given Dumbledore's reaction to Harry looking in his pensieve, and his own interest in other people's thoughts; I doubt he'd consider it the invasion Snape does.) just claim that Snape didn't wish to teach him any more.

Hm, I tend to think that Dumbledore wouldn't have memories he'd absolutely want to keep to himself accessible to others in any way.

Well. Iirc, post-Pensieve, he's desperate to find a way to make Snape the one to blame for his treatment in the memory; which is his primary focus, rather than current day Snape's reaction.

Well, he does, but he also comes to the conclusion that there is no way to make it Snape's fault. Considering how he had idolised his father, it would only be natural to try and put all the blame on Snape - the fact that he accepts the reality he saw says quite a lot about him, I think.

Of course, the fact that he starts imagining his father somehow forcing his mother into marrying him says something else, and is pretty hilarious. I never noticed his dramatic streak before...

So I would consider it probable and IC for him to try to put the blame on others (in this case Snape) rather than examining his own behaviour.

That's all part of growing up isn't it? To take responsibility for your own actions? Still, I didn't see him try to excuse his own behaviour here. He's not confused or angry about Snape's reactions, but rather seem to accept them. Extreme as they may be, they're pretty natural after all.

Is there another instance where he does this, maybe?

I don't think as well of Harry's character as you appear to, but I agree, there's no need for dumbing down characters to either Good or Evil.

I think sometimes fandom is completely polarised. In one part of fandom I ran into the opinion that Slytherin was the one and only source of evil, while in other parts they're though of as poor misunderstood geniuses. That most of them are ordinary school children seem unthinkable.

Heh, anyway, I was trying to list the traits Harry has that I could actually find examples of in canon. And to have a few good and few bad. I guess I failed on that last account?

[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

but rather suspects that Snape is hiding some particular piece of information that concerns Harry directly.

That, and he's angry with Cho and Malfoy.
But yeah, I find it fairly understandable, but then, I'm a nosy person myself!

He doesn't tell anyone about it, not even his closest friends, despite how badly it could hurt Snape's pride.

True. But then, Harry's fairly insular. There's a lot he doesn't tell his friends. I think here, he's embarrassed about his dad's behaviour. (I'd have to dig up my word copy to be sure, but I'm fairly certain there's some mention of this in the immediate following chapter.) And while I don't necessarily think this is his motivation, not sharing what angered Snape places the responsibility solely on Snape - he got angry and stopped the lessons, no further comment. (it's a similiar situation to the Sectumsempra in HPB, I think - when I first read that, my reaction was torn between being impressed that Harry didn't choose to embarrass Malfoy further by sharing that he was crying; and wondering how the story came across to the others - like that Malfoy saw Harry and tried an Unforgiveable instantly? However, I would consider his overall reactions - his happiness at Ginny's defense of the curse as 'something good up (his) sleeve', and his sadness over not being able to play Quidditch, as well as anger over getting detentions and Pansy spreading the story; and the immediate concealment of the HBP's book; as coming under the category of avoiding responsibility for his actions.)

I guess I failed on that last account?

Hardly! I think that it's difficult to agree on characteristics in fandoms sometimes - what the author intends and what audiences see is going to vary, and even more so from one individual reader to the next. What I might consider at funny (look at reactions on the Twins!) or loyal might not be what you, or JKR, or the characters do.
(Another example I guess would be JKR's description of HBP!Ginny as 'warm and compassionate' which boggled a few people on my list.)

[lanjelin.livejournal.com]

That, and he's angry with Cho and Malfoy.
But yeah, I find it fairly understandable, but then, I'm a nosy person myself!

Haha, me too. I'm not sure I could have resisted the temptation in the same situation! On the other hand, he's seized by a "reckless daring", so to me that read as an indication of his bravery crossing over to the realm of recklessness and a fairly clear mistake on Harry's part.

I'd have to dig up my word copy to be sure, but I'm fairly certain there's some mention of this in the immediate following chapter.)

Oh, there is; he doesn't think of Snape much at all, and there is nothing about him specifically feeling sorry for what he's done. He's fully concentrated on his parents and Sirius and Remus' actions in the past. He judges them as harshly as any critical fan actually: Sirius is "as bad as his father" and Remus "let it all happen" despite his prefect status. Harry's not happy at all here, especially since he comes to the conclusion that Snape couldn't be blamed for it.

No, my impression of Harry's feelings on what he did isn't based on solid statements in the text here, I'm afraid. It's how I see Harry's personality over all, in combination with the things I already mentioned. And his assurance of "No, of course I w-". it implies that he feels he invaded Snape's privacy.

You're right in that he places much most of the responsibility for ending the lessons on Snape. I just got the impression that he was ashamed of his actions too. I don't think the two are mutually exclusive in this case.

(it's a similiar situation to the Sectumsempra in HPB, I think -

Well, somewhat, I guess. In HBP he found Draco accidentally, and I saw it as a sign of maturity that even then he chose to keep that to himself. (I think it's important to remember that what Harry's doing in the books is growing up.)

And about the unforgivable, I think it's fairly likely that Snape uses Legilimency on Harry when he first sees him and directly finds out what happened and how shocked and horrified Harry was.

like that Malfoy saw Harry and tried an Unforgiveable instantly?

I only checked the Sectusempra part, and the part about him getting detentions and his friends finding out just after, and I couldn't find the part where he says this. Is it later on? I haven't reread recently.

as well as anger over getting detentions

I couldn't see any anger either. Except at Snape, of course, but not at the detentions. He doesn't even pretest them, except for that weak attempt at changing the day. It felt as if he was taking responsibility, to me. It wasn't as if he was trying to blame anyone else, not even the book where he read it. He says "I'm not defending what I did!" "...but you can't blame the Prince"

and the immediate concealment of the HBP's book; as coming under the category of avoiding responsibility for his actions.)

Yeah, this part is not exactly his most honest moment. I think it's human, though. Harry's not particularly nice all the time, which is one of the reasons I like him so much.

Another example I guess would be JKR's description of HBP!Ginny as 'warm and compassionate' which boggled a few people on my list.

Hah, yes, that was a moment of complete bafflement for mee too. That whole relationship was written so badly that I kept wondering if she was doing it on purpose!

[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

No, my impression of Harry's feelings on what he did isn't based on solid statements in the text here, I'm afraid. It's how I see Harry's personality over all.

I'm afraid I disagree with your assessment. Although there is common-ground to be found: I would stake my life on betting that your impression is what JKR's intending to express.
So if anyone's 'reading this right' so to speak; you are.
I think that I just differ from JKR on what makes a likeable character!

I couldn't find the part where he says this.

I didn't mean to imply he said that!
What I meant (and am expressing badly!) was that while I did find it mature and sensitive that Harry didn't tell his friends something Malfoy would clearly find embarrassing; him not mentioning that he'd walked in on something like that may give across the impression (intended or not) that Harry had walked in, Malfoy had tried an Unforgiveable (we know that he tells his friends this, at least) and he used Sectumsempra, with no explanation for why Malfoy would immediately try such a serious hex.

I couldn't see any anger either. Except at Snape, of course, but not at the detentions.

I don't know. He worries that Slughorn will find out from Snape that he's been cheating all year; Snape asks if he feels he deserves the detentions, Harry disagrees. (Although he does feel he doesn't deserve Ginny's support, which is something, I suppose.)
Then he (or the narrative voice, rather) describes not being able to play as the worst punishment of all.

That whole relationship was written so badly that I kept wondering if she was doing it on purpose!

No kidding! I was never that fond of the idea of H/G prior to her personality transformation, but I think I'd like it ten times better than the abomination we got in HBP.

[lanjelin.livejournal.com]

So if anyone's 'reading this right' so to speak; you are.

I don't necessarily think there is a right way to interpret his character. You have to look at what is in the text after all, and I've noticed that we see different things, heh.

I just don't think that we're supposed to approve of everything Harry does. He does awful things sometimes, and I think it makes him more believable than a main character who is always on the moral high-ground so to speak.

...and he used Sectumsempra, with no explanation for why Malfoy would immediately try such a serious hex.

Oh, I misunderstood! Sorry. Heh, I guess I just took it for granted that Ron and Hermoine (or at least Ron) already think that ill of Draco. Their enmity goes so far back now, that it would take a lot to change their opinion at this time. That Harry has started to, was something I had hoped for (and somewhat expected, actually). I'm thinking )and hoping) that the last book will have Draco and his decisions as one of the bigger plot points.

...(or the narrative voice, rather) describes not being able to play as the worst punishment of all.

I wonder if Harry doesn't just consider the Prince's instructions additional reading? He still has to learn the original potion recipies to be able to modify them, right? So he might not see it as cheating. And not being able to play is, of course, the worst punishment for him and he still takes it. I felt as if the narrative implied that Harry felt he deserved the detentions (which of course he did).

No kidding! I was never that fond of the idea of H/G prior to her personality transformation, but I think I'd like it ten times better than the abomination we got in HBP.

It's the most boring pair I could imagine and I wonder if JKR doesn't agree, considering the quality of the writing during those parts. But even the original Ginny would have been much better than the Perfect In Every Way version.

I chose to concentrate on the very nice H/D subtext instead. ;)

[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

I'm thinking (and hoping) that the last book will have Draco and his decisions as one of the bigger plot points.

Me too! It was a relief to see him take a larger role in HBP, finally, especially since post OotP so many people seemed to doubt he had any further part to play.

So he might not see it as cheating.

I suppose not. Harry tends to justify/not question his own shadier actions to himself, again, imho. (That he felt guilty at all re: the Sectumsempra, for example; was a huge step in the right direction.)
Still, it's a contrast to the kid in CoS who was outraged at Lockhart's taking the credit for other wizard's work.

And not being able to play is, of course, the worst punishment for him and he still takes it.

There's very little he could do about it, though, wasn't there? I mean, it's not like he could have refused to sit out the game - it's a school team.

[vvvexation.livejournal.com]

What about Snape cancelling his Occlumency lessons?

[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

I suppose. But then the narrative puts the blame on Snape, and Harry to a lesser extent as the younger; being unable to overcome a long-running enmity rather than that particular situation (does Dumbledore even know that Harry looked into Snape's pensieve?)
And being bad at Occlumency appears to be considered a strength of character, based on JKR's statements (of course, authorial interviews aren't canon; imho.)