GoF 30

[pauraque_bk]

GoF 30: The Pensieve

I was sure JKR had relatively recently said some things about how Pensieves work, but now I can't find it. Was it in an interview?

'I wanted to talk to you, Professor,' Harry said quickly, looking at Dumbledore, who gave him a swift, searching look. (505)


'Professor,' Harry said at last, 'do you think he's getting stronger?'

'Voldemort?' said Dumbledore, looking at Harry over the Pensieve. It was the characteristic, piercing look Dumbledore had given him on other occasions, and always made Harry feel as though Dumbledore was seeing right through him, in a way that even Moody's magical eye could not. (523)

This is Legilimency, of course. In the first instance, Dumbledore gives him the Look before leaving him alone with the Pensieve. Given the conveniently open cupboard door and D's subsequent relaxed reaction to Harry's snooping, I wonder if whatever he saw in Harry's mind made him decide it was the right moment to let him find out about the memories that were in there.

In the second case, D's sudden (and unnecessary) "Voldemort?" made me wonder if D was looking for some sign of V's influence in Harry's mind.

[Moody:] 'Let's hear [Karkaroff's] information, I say, and throw him straight back to the Dementors.'

Dumbledore made a small noise of dissent through his long, crooked nose.

'Ah, I was forgetting ... you don't like the Dementors, do you, Albus?' said Moody, with a sardonic smile.

'No,' said Dumbledore calmly, 'I'm afraid I don't. I have long felt the Ministry is wrong to ally itself with such creatures.' (511)

Dumbledore may have several reasons for believing so. The word 'wrong' suggests a moral opposition to cruel and unusual punishment. It could be that. But there are practical reasons to oppose torture, too: Information extracted from a prisoner in agony may be inaccurate. It's interesting that the names Karkaroff gives are all (as far as we know) actually Death Eaters, since you might expect someone in such a state of desperation to start throwing out any name he can think of.

Dumbledore may also be concerned that the Dementors can't be reliably controlled, as has since been proven to be so.

'Not yet!' cried Karkaroff, looking quite desperate. 'Wait, I have more! [...] Snape!' he shouted. 'Severus Snape.' (513)

Interesting that he doesn't name Snape right away, but waits until the last moment, until it's his only remaining option. Could be because he has/had a close relationship with Snape and would rather not sell him out unless he has to.

'I have given evidence already on this matter,' [Dumbledore] said calmly. 'Severus Snape was indeed a Death Eater. However, he rejoined our side before Lord Voldemort's downfall and turned spy for us, at great personal risk. He is now no more a Death Eater than I am.' (513)

I always loved that -- "no more than I am". OMG evil!Dumbledore!!1

Also, randomly, I think it's odd that V so often gets his preferred title 'Lord' affixed to his name, even by characters who have no reason to treat him with respect. (...or do they? Dun dun dunnnnn!)

(I should probably add that I don't actually think Dumbledore is secretly working with Voldemort. It just amuses me to think about.)

[Upon Ludo Bagman's name being cleared:]

One of the witches on the jury stood up.

'Yes?' barked Crouch.

'We'd just like to congratulate Mr Bagman on his splendid performance for England in the Quidditch match against Turkey last Saturday,' the witch said breathessly.

Mr Crouch looked furious. The dungeon was ringing with applause now. Bagman got to his feet and bowed, beaming. (515)

What do you guys think of this subplot? As usual in GoF, the mob is easily swayed... Does that mean Bagman is actually guilty of something? He acknowledges that he did pass information to a DE, but claims he thought Rookwood was "one of ours". Plausible? If so, what's the point JKR's trying to make here? The innocent only get justice if they're also popular (as Sirius presumably wasn't)?

'We have heard the evidence against you [Bellatrix, Crouch Jr, Rodolphus & Rabastan]. The four of you stand accused of capturing an Auror -- Frank Longbottom -- and subjecting him to the Cruciatus curse, believing him to have knowledge of the present whereabouts of your exiled master, He Who Must Not Be Named--' (516-517)

Why would they think Frank would have such information? Any reason besides him being an Auror?

[T]he woman with the heavy-lidded eyes looked up at Crouch and called, 'The Dark Lord will rise again, Crouch! Throw us into Azkaban, we will wait! He will reward us beyond any of his other supporters! We alone were faithful! We alone tried to find him!' (517)

I think Bella is being a little charitable to her co-prisoners here; she's obviously the real loyalist. Rabastan & Rodolphus are 'staring blankly' and 'looking nervous', and of course Crouch Jr is loudly throwing himself on the mercy of the court. I think Bellatrix is the only truly loyal DE, unless she, too, has some ulterior motive we don't know about yet.

Dumbledore placed his long hands on either side of the Pensieve and swirled it, rather as a gold prospector would swirl for fragments of gold ... and Harry saw his own face change smoothly into Snape's, who opened his mouth, and spoke to the ceiling, his voice echoing slightly. 'It's coming back ... Karkaroff's too ... stronger and clearer than ever...' (519)

I like the suggested connection between Harry and Snape, which surely goes deeper than Harry's scar reminding D of Snape's mark.

It isn't immediately apparent why the mark should be stronger "than ever", since Voldemort himself certainly isn't, not yet.

'No, I -- how did you know it woke me up over the summer?' said Harry, astonished.

'You are not Sirius' only correspondent,' said Dumbledore. 'I have also been in contact with him ever since he left Hogwarts last year. It was I who suggested the mountainside cave as the safest place for him to stay.' (521)

Well, I'd entirely forgotten about that. How does this affect the position that Sirius is behaving more responsibly than normal, if Dumbledore's been suggesting what he should do all this time? It's also interesting that Sirius doesn't bother to tell Harry that he's been repeating everything he says to Dumbledore.

'What made you think he'd really stopped supporting Voldemort, Professor?'

Dumbledore held Harry's gaze for a few seoncds, and then said, 'That, Harry, is a matter between Professor Snape and myself.' (524)

I don't know what I can say about this that hasn't already been said, except that since Dumbledore is now dead, the ways in which Harry can learn the Real Reason are more limited. More Pensieve scenes could be in the offing, or perhaps Snape could reveal the truth himself -- but can Harry believe it from him?


Previous GoF posts are saved in memories here.

Comments

[atdelphi.livejournal.com]

The moral of this chapter: More Snape/Karkaroff and Snape/Dumbledore must be written. The end. :-)

[pauraque]

Absolutely! Reading this chapter actually put me in mind of that cool AD/SS fic you got for Smutmas, snapetoy's Bindings.

[atdelphi.livejournal.com]

Ooh, yes. *goes to re-read* Thanks for linking it here - it should definitely be more widely read.

[des06.livejournal.com]

I thought that Dumbledore mentioned in HBP that the reason he trusts Snape is because Snape repented after the death of Harry's parents?

(This of course makes no sense in terms of the timeline since Snape was hired before Lily and James were killed and so it means that Dumbledore hired a Death Eater and the contradictions there are insane. But I recall reading it nevertheless so I'm throwing it out there.)

[ani-bester.livejournal.com]

I think he repented after he found out Lily and James were *going* to be killed . . which means . . . what, he was loyal to Dumbledore for maybe a week or so before Voldemrot fell.

Oh yes, I feel the loyalty, don't you?. =P

[des06.livejournal.com]

Oh dude, duh. I'm an idiot. I forgot that Snape was what caused James and Lily to go into hiding in the first place. Thanks.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

One thing that always surprises me in fandom is how often people remember things wrong, or the way Harry remembers them, when we have the text to check. DD's reason for trusting Snape has always been highlighted as a big question mark. He always refuses to tell it. In HBP Harry tells everyone it was because Snape "spun a tale of deep remorse" (Snape also tells this to Bellatrix), but Dumbledore never says that was the reason. Yet I've heard that discussed as the reason in fandom too. Of course, that's also why I jumped on Harry's jumping to the conclusion that Draco had a Dark Mark in HBP as being...Harry jumping to a conclusion, since we hear Draco say he was stuck by a pin and then later Harry just says he jumped a mile because Madam Malkin touched his arm. But that hasn't been cleared up. (Many think this was cleared up in an interview, but I thought the line in question was just as much of a non-answer as the book.)

Anyway, that was a total tangent, but my point was how often we are shown something in canon, and then Harry remembers it differently, and that becomes canon somehow. Dumbledore's *not* telling us about Snape is a biggie.

Interesting also here that Snape being a DE isn't the biggest thing he responds to.

It would be interesting if the Bagman plot went somewhere. The WW does seem particularly stupid when it comes to celebrities, and this either helps or hurts Harry depending on the way the wind is blowing. Interesting that Arthur in this very book says how he likes Bagman (as opposed to Percy, who doesn't) and accepts tickets from him when the guy passed information to DEs. I don't think that means he necessarily was one, but I doubt he was just being stupid. I'd assume Ludo liked to deal with whoever gave him what he wanted or anyone who sucked up to him and really didn't care if they were DEs. I can't help but think Percy's right on this one in seeing Ludo's attitude as less than harmless.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Yet I've heard that discussed as the reason in fandom too.

Err..just wanted to say I was writing this at the same time as the comment above me--that wasn't meant as a reference to the other post!

[pauraque]

I haven't done a careful reading of HBP, so I try not to rely on my memory about it, but that's the way I remember it in HBP too, that Harry just assumed a reasonable scenario for Dumbledore accepting Snape back into the fold.

I'm actually not sure why anyone would want to believe Harry's conclusion, since it's so mundane. Surely it would be more interesting if it were something more complex and specific than "spinning a tale of deep remorse". I know that's what I'm expecting.

[pauraque]

Okay, I had to go to the book on this one.


"I have played my part well," said Snape. "And you overlook Dumbledore's greatest weakness: He has to believe the best of people. I spun him a tale of deepest remorse when I joined his staff, fresh from my Death Eater days, and he embraced me with open arms — though, as I say, never allowing me nearer the Dark Arts than he could help. Dumbledore has been a great wizard — oh yes, he has," (for Bellatrix had made a scathing noise), "the Dark Lord acknowledges it. I am pleased to say, however, that Dumbledore is growing old. The duel with the Dark Lord last month shook him. He has since sustained a serious injury because his reactions are slower than they once were. But through all these years, he has never stopped trusting Severus Snape, and therein lies my great value to the Dark Lord." (HBP Chapter 2)

He has every reason to lie to Bellatrix. But it's also interesting that he suggests that D never stopped trusting him. Hm.

'You have no idea of the remorse Professor Snape felt when he realised how Lord Voldemort had interpreted the prophecy, Harry. I believe it to be the greatest regret of his life and the reason that he returned -'

'But he's a very good Occlumens, isn't he, sir?' said Harry, whose voice was shaking with the effort of keeping it steady. 'And isn't Voldemort convinced that Snape's on his side, even now? Professor ... how can you be sure Snape's on our side?'

Dumbledore did not speak for a moment; he looked as though he was trying to make up his mind about something. At last he said, 'I am sure. I trust Severus Snape completely.' (HBP Chapter 25)

D says the remorse was the reason Snape came back. What he definitely does not say is that the remorse is why he took him back. You are right, it's a very pointed non-answer.

[trobadora]

Harry is constantly jumping to (wrong) conclusions all through the book - I don't see why this one should be more credible somehow only because we have no other information as of yet. I always thought it was obvious JKR was setting up some big revelation somewhere in Book 7, and if this doesn't happen I'll be very disappointed not only as a Snape fan, but for reasons of narrative technique as well.

[grasshopper.livejournal.com]

Here's something I've been wondering about... Crouch only mentions "an Auror, Frank Longbottom" in his accusation. But he doesn't mention Alice. And later in this chapter, I think, Dumbledore tells Neville's secret: "His father, Frank, was an Auror, and he and his wife were tortured..." These bits make me wonder if it's a figment of my imagination (or else a figment of canon) that I (and the Lexicon, apparently) think Alice was also an Auror.

Because, elsewhere in canon, doesn't Mrs Longbottom say that they were both Aurors? I can't tell if I am missing something or if JKR herself isn't quite sure.

I won't go so far as to say JKR is sexist/patriarch..al..ist (no, I don't know what I mean, either) but I will allow that father issues do tend to pop up rather often in the books. Between that and her general wobbliness on details, it probably doesn't do to think too hard on this discrepancy.

As for the courtroom scene, if Alice wasn't an Auror, I can understand her death rating slightly less than Frank's -- there being an extra bit of outrage over cop-killings -- but still, her murder wouldn't be left off the charge altogether...?

[grasshopper.livejournal.com]

Hmm -- have just looked it over and realised that Crouch was cut off in making his pronouncement -- so presumably Alice's murder was next on the list. But if they are both Aurors, and hence were both presumably being tortured for the same reason, then why did JKR not say 'the Aurors Frank and Alice Longbottom' -- I mean, according to courtroom protocol, charges are probably read out separately, but JKR, even with literary licence, only saw fit to mention Frank -- which is so odd, because the Neville/Harry parallel depends so much on both of them being orphaned, both having parents who defied Voldemort, &c.

So it's just weird that Frank seems to given the emphasis in this chapter. Then again, the books overflow with daddy issues, so....

(also, in my comment above, I meant to say a figment of fanon)

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

they say they're both Aurors in OotP

maybe JKR changed her mind to appear less sexist.

[lizbee.livejournal.com]

You know what drives me crazy about GoF?

Barty Crouch Jr. Or more precisely, the changes in his character between book and movie. Because they're quite dramatically different, with enough narrative changes that you can't justify the presence of movie!Barty in a fic that claims to have any connection to the books.

And this grieves me, because movie!Barty is just the kind of hyperactive sociopath I really, really, really love. Beyond the fact that he's played by my boyfriend, I mean. Movie!Barty fascinates me; book!Barty is lovely, but less manic.

Alas. *mourns*

(I solemnly swear that this comment wasn't just an elaborate excuse to use my Barty Jr. icon.)

[caesia390.livejournal.com]

I agree.

It doesn't drive me crazy, though.

Many, many other things drive me crazy about these books...

But any improvements the movies can make on them? Thumbs up.

(Like Dumbledore!!! HATED him in this book. LOVED him in the movie. Kloves seemed to incorporate a lot of his desperation from Books Five and Six, but it makes even more sense here, when things are beginning to fall apart. Not some damn mysterious twinkle in his eye... (EVIL!))

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

What do you guys think of this subplot? As usual in GoF, the mob is easily swayed... Does that mean Bagman is actually guilty of something?
I always felt something was fishy with him and he would show up again... but given that we've had no news since then and that it was dropped from the movie, I guess the matter is moot.
Maybe it serves as an exemple of an actual person who was tricked in serving Voldemort by opposition with all the actual DEs (see Impero'ed Arthur theories)

Why would they think Frank would have such information? Any reason besides him being an Auror?
Frank and Alice were hidden as part of the same program as James and Lily Potter, were they not ? I mean, they had as many chances to be targetted... maybe that was known among the DE.
Bellatrix & co might not have known about Peter at this point, at least not by name. But if they knew that Voldemort had a secret informer among the Order, and that it was this spy's informant that led him to his mysterious disapearance it makes sense to look among those people for knowledge of what happened to him (and what secret weapon fell him ^^)

It also might be recupped back to the Horcruxes as well. I wouldn't be surprised if Bellatrix had some shred of knowledge about them, or one horcrux in her possession.

Interesting that he doesn't name Snape right away, but waits until the last moment, until it's his only remaining option.
I always saw it as an indication that they were friends, yes. That and the way Karkaroff kept hanging around Snape ^^ Not to mention the way he hovers around Viktor who's described as looking like Snape ;)

[j-lunatic.livejournal.com]

What do you guys think of this subplot? As usual in GoF, the mob is easily swayed... Does that mean Bagman is actually guilty of something?
I always felt something was fishy with him and he would show up again

There's been speculation that the unnamed "big blond" who was part of the Death Eater invasion in Half-Blood Prince is Bagman.

Why would they think Frank would have such information? Any reason besides him being an Auror?

On the Rumours section of her Web site, Rowling states that 1) Bellatrix and company were sent after the Longbottoms, and 2) they didn't know about the prophecy, so presumably their motivation was Voldemort's reported location. Which raises the question of who sent them. *dusts off pet Machiavelli!Dumbledore theory*

I wouldn't be surprised if Bellatrix had some shred of knowledge about them, or one horcrux in her possession.

Bellatrix's "He has trusted me with his most precious--" in "Spinner's End" has been interpreted as her keeping one of the horcruxes at some point. Perhaps she had the diary horcrux before she went to Azkaban, and this is how it got into Lucius' hands.

[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

Given the conveniently open cupboard door and D's subsequent relaxed reaction to Harry's snooping

I suppose it would be hypocritical of him to object, considering that he's mind-reading him at that very moment. But it's quite amusing to see his actions and reaction to Harry's nosiness in juxtaposition with him implying Bertha Jorkins deserved a hexing, if not her final fate; for her curiosity.

[vvvexation.livejournal.com]

I don't think he thinks she deserved it, merely that she was taking too many risks and finally suffered negative consequences as a result. He specifically says to Harry in that scene something to the effect that there's nothing necessarily wrong with being curious but "we should exercise caution with our curiosity." I got the impression he meant because it's risky, not because it's wrong.

[njelruch.livejournal.com]

What do you guys think of this subplot? As usual in GoF, the mob is easily swayed... Does that mean Bagman is actually guilty of something?

I always figured that the scene was set up to show the corruption of the Wizarding justice system. Guilty or not, Bagman got off because he was a popular athlete. Guilty or not, Crouch Jr. was convicted on public sentiment, not actual evidence. Karkaroff cut a deal, and wound up headmaster of a school. Sirius was convicted without trial. Methinks the Wizarding World's got problems beyond the whole megalomaniacal Dark Lord bent on world domination thingy.

[aithopa.livejournal.com]

Bagman subplot is strange; I kept expecting him to resurface some time or other. I guess it's either the-justice-system-sucks or else he's going to pop up as a not so surprising DE, if he shows up again at all . (GoF gives us Bagman, Crouch, Fudge, and I guess Percy...the Ministry, she is not so hot.)

I think Bellatrix is the only truly loyal DE, unless she, too, has some ulterior motive we don't know about yet.

True. I always think of Bellatrix and Crouch Jr as the only truly loyal DEs, but it seems likely that Crouch only became a really crazed fanatic after Voldie saved him from his life of misery. Or else he realized that getting out of jail would enable him to more efficiently track down Voldemort, or something.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

It's kind of interesting to speculate about just when Barty became so loyal, if his behavior at the trial wasn't an act. He explicitly talks of Voldemort as a substitute father, and says both he and Voldemort had fathers unworthy of them. He says Crouch didn't love him as much as he loved his mother and I think he says he wanted to return to Voldemort all the time.

So it's possible he really was always very loyal and acting at the trial, and that only Crouch Sr. knew it, or that he grew to hate his father even more after he threw him in Azkaban and clung to his DE loyalty to hold on to his sanity much as Sirius clung to wanting to get revenge on Peter. (Revenge is a good way to fight off depression!)

[lanjelin.livejournal.com]

I was sure JKR had relatively recently said some things about how Pensieves work, but now I can't find it. Was it in an interview?

She answered a question about them, but I don't know where. I do recall the answer though: The memory is not affected by the person whose memory it is, but an objective retelling of the events. It's part of the magic of the pensieve.

[wolfie-thu.livejournal.com]

I think it's in this interview: http://www.mugglenet.com/jkrinterview.shtml (don't remember which page, though).