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pauraque_bkThe discussion on Chapter 30 went on for quite a while! Worth going back if you only looked when it was first posted.
GoF 31: The Third Task
dictator Dark Lord.
This is true in reality, and possibly even more so in these books, which present Voldemort as a born sociopath incapable of love. Most of his followers, however, are not like this, and are quite capable of choosing not to do wrong. Voldemort represents Evil, to which anyone can be tempted. Surely that is the lesson Harry should learn. (Maybe in Book 7.)
Is a "night-time stroll" anything like "a particularly happy hour spent down by the lake"? Though there's a suggestion of underage...ness, I think the important part is that Arthur and Molly are presented as never having been with anyone else. (An OTP, if you will.) No wonder Ron thinks his sister's a slut just for dating different people.
Another possibility is that Hagrid merely became this guy Ogg's apprentice, and didn't take over the whole job until later.
(As an aside, I really like the idea that the Sphinx legend derives from experiences of being stared down by animals with semi-hypnotic gazes, such as tigers and cobras, which can seem to look into one's very soul. This would have been translated into a monster with the face of a beautiful woman -- another being whose gaze can mesmerize a man.)
The answer to Harry's riddle is a spider, which he will shortly face in the maze. I don't think I've ever heard a theory suggesting a deeper meaning for it, but we could start now! There are an awful lot of spiders in the HP series...
The movie version of the maze, in which you can literally "lose yourself", is more reminiscent of the classical Sphinx than the simplified version in the book (which the movie does not include in any case). In fact, most of the barriers -- the spider, the Skrewt, the Boggart, the mist that turns Harry upside-down -- were dispensed with by the filmmakers. In the book it plays a lot like the climax of Philosopher's Stone, which also presents a series of obstacles that seem curiously designed for Harry to be able to conquer. The movie version works better, IMO.
You know what's sad about this chapter? Realizing Cedric never found out that Krum wasn't actually a bad guy after all. :\
Previous GoF posts are saved in memories here.
GoF 31: The Third Task
It was Voldemort, Harry thought [...] it all came back to Voldemort ... he was the one who had torn these families apart, who had ruined all these lives... (528)Well, sort of. But Voldemort is not vastly more powerful than other wizards, he's just charismatic and manipulative. A madman alone is just a madman; it takes sane people listening to him to make him a
This is true in reality, and possibly even more so in these books, which present Voldemort as a born sociopath incapable of love. Most of his followers, however, are not like this, and are quite capable of choosing not to do wrong. Voldemort represents Evil, to which anyone can be tempted. Surely that is the lesson Harry should learn. (Maybe in Book 7.)
Mrs Weasley grinned, her eyes twinkling.Oh my. The good old days Filch spoke of! Oh, who was it who wrote Filch/Pringle recently? I meant to read that...
'Your father and I had been for a night-time stroll,' she said. 'He got caught by Apollyon Pringle -- he was the caretaker in those days -- your father's still got the marks.' (535)
Is a "night-time stroll" anything like "a particularly happy hour spent down by the lake"? Though there's a suggestion of underage...ness, I think the important part is that Arthur and Molly are presented as never having been with anyone else. (An OTP, if you will.) No wonder Ron thinks his sister's a slut just for dating different people.
Mrs Weasley was intrigued by the Whomping Willow, which had been planted after she had left school, and reminisced at length about the gamekeeper before Hagrid, a man called Ogg. (536)JKR remembers that the Whomping Willow was planted for Remus, long after Molly's school days, but she forgets that Hagrid became gamekeeper in the 1940s, unless she really means for Arthur and Molly to be over 60 years old.
Another possibility is that Hagrid merely became this guy Ogg's apprentice, and didn't take over the whole job until later.
'No,' [the Sphinx] said, continuing to pace. 'Not unless you can answer my riddle. Answer on your first guess -- I let you pass. Answer wrongly -- I attack. Remain silent -- I will let you walk away from me, unscathed.' (546)The Greek Sphinx asks Oedipus the riddle "What goes on four legs at dawn, two legs at midday, and three legs at night?" The answer of course is a human being -- Oedipus himself. He must solve the riddle by symbolically looking within.
(As an aside, I really like the idea that the Sphinx legend derives from experiences of being stared down by animals with semi-hypnotic gazes, such as tigers and cobras, which can seem to look into one's very soul. This would have been translated into a monster with the face of a beautiful woman -- another being whose gaze can mesmerize a man.)
The answer to Harry's riddle is a spider, which he will shortly face in the maze. I don't think I've ever heard a theory suggesting a deeper meaning for it, but we could start now! There are an awful lot of spiders in the HP series...
The movie version of the maze, in which you can literally "lose yourself", is more reminiscent of the classical Sphinx than the simplified version in the book (which the movie does not include in any case). In fact, most of the barriers -- the spider, the Skrewt, the Boggart, the mist that turns Harry upside-down -- were dispensed with by the filmmakers. In the book it plays a lot like the climax of Philosopher's Stone, which also presents a series of obstacles that seem curiously designed for Harry to be able to conquer. The movie version works better, IMO.
[Harry] looked down at his leg. It was bleeding badly. He could see some sort of thick, gluey secretion from the spider's pincers on his torn robes. He tried to get up, but his leg was shaking badly and did not want to support his weight. (549)And in this condition, he's supposed to drag Cedric's corpse back to the Cup fast enough that the DEs don't catch him? That's almost as good as being able to wield a two-handed sword at age 12 with no training in CoS! Come on, Harry's a wizard, not a superhero.
You know what's sad about this chapter? Realizing Cedric never found out that Krum wasn't actually a bad guy after all. :\
Previous GoF posts are saved in memories here.
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no subject
Date: 2006-02-10 10:31 am (UTC)Shit.
Do you know I just made the connection that in both the riddle of the Sphinx and in looking for the impurity that brought about the plague, the answer that Oedipus seeks is himself?
I feel smart and dumb at the same time.
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Date: 2006-02-10 10:45 am (UTC)And hey, wasn't Oedipus's foster-mother Merope? :)
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Date: 2006-02-10 07:39 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-02-10 11:05 am (UTC)I read a very intriguing and highly plausible theory about Snape and spiders recently. Lots of references to spiders and he is often described with spider-like tendencies - eg. the way his walking is described in the Worst Memory scene. It was also suggested that Snape might be a spider animagus although I think you get to the point where there are more illegal animagi than liscensed ones!
I'll have to find the link
Snape and spiders
Date: 2006-02-10 04:08 pm (UTC)A friend of
Re: Snape and spiders
Date: 2006-02-10 07:48 pm (UTC)I can't find the link to whoever was discussing it. I'll keep hunting and might have to make my own theory instead!!
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Date: 2006-02-10 11:53 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-02-10 11:55 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-02-12 11:17 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-02-10 11:39 am (UTC)Another possibility is that Hagrid merely became this guy Ogg's apprentice, and didn't take over the whole job until later.
Weren't we straight out told that Hagrid was apprentice to the previous gamekeeper for a long while ? I have that memory, but I can't place it.
The answer to Harry's riddle is a spider, which he will shortly face in the maze. I don't think I've ever heard a theory suggesting a deeper meaning for it, but we could start now! There are an awful lot of spiders in the HP series...
What
It's amusing because, beyond being two classical scary animals; Snakes and Spiders are respectively two classical animal phallic and yonic symbols. Add Snape's "foolish wand-waving" speech to the deal, and I'm giggling quietly in a corner and people will look at me weirdly.
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Date: 2006-02-10 03:32 pm (UTC)Were we? If you do recall where you saw that, can you leave me a link? I don't recall ever seeing anything suggesting that, and have long used that bit of canon to justify an Arthur who is considerably older than Lucius. I'd love to know if that idea is valid or not.
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Date: 2006-02-10 03:36 pm (UTC)It would be a shame to have Arthur be much older than Lucius, that removes all those occasions for Lucius/Arthur :p
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Date: 2006-02-12 11:19 pm (UTC)I have no memory of that. If you remember where it is, let us know!
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Date: 2006-02-10 01:38 pm (UTC)This bit always fascinated me. Molly and Arthur went for a stroll together, but only he got caught by the caretaker. Why had they parted company? It's entirely plausible that they might have slipped out separately, but getting caught before meeting would no doubt have put paid to their strolling plans for that evening. Afterwards? You'd have thought Arthur would have been gentlemanly enough to escort Molly back to the castle, in which case how did the caretaker catch them apart?
Naturally, because I'm ever-alert to signs that characters Harry approves of belong to some other house than Gryffindor, I concluded that the only sensible way for it to work was if the two of them belonged to different houses. Arthur walked Molly back to the door to her common room, and was then caught on the way to his own.
Of course Ron rather puts paid to that line of speculation by stating outright that all of his brothers and his mother and father were in Gryffindor on the train in Philosopher's Stone. So I guess that I'm just looking for hidden meanings that aren't there again. :-)
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Date: 2006-02-10 01:46 pm (UTC)I was rather hoping that she did, but the evidence for wizarding longevity is rather contradictory. On the one hand you have Dumbledore at 150-ish, on the other you have all those dead parents and grandparents in the Black and Potter families, and the wizarding tendency to marry and start having a family straight out of school rather than waiting around a few years to get established in a career first.
I do think it quite likely that Hagrid started off as assistant groundkeeper and only got the job later on though. Quite apart from smoothing out the apparent contradiction here, it makes sense of the fact that he got taken on immediately after he was expelled as a third year. He'd almost have had to undergo an apprenticeship first.
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Date: 2006-02-10 06:13 pm (UTC)There's a theory that the dragon pox that killed Draco's grandfather could've killed the Black and Potter elders as well. Damned if I can remember the evidence for it, though.
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Date: 2006-02-12 11:21 pm (UTC)Oh, I'd forgotten that he was only 13 or 14, I was imagining he was the same age as Tom, 16 or 17. You're right. Even a very large 14-year-old would be unlikely to be able to take on that kind of responsibility.
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Date: 2006-02-10 02:32 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-02-10 06:29 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-02-10 02:07 pm (UTC)Why are you given this impression?
I think JKR has been very clear that he is indeed more powerful than most. In fact, as far as the people we know (wizard-wise) he should be considered #2.
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Date: 2006-02-10 09:27 pm (UTC)If he is so powerful that resistance is futile, that leaves the characters with a rather different choice: not do evil or fight it, but do evil or die. That's the choice Peter wants the characters to think he was faced with in PoA, but do we believe him?
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Date: 2006-02-10 02:49 pm (UTC)That's how I read it. Though we can picture Arthur & Molly as "just turned 18" if that makes it more acceptable.
I think the important part is that Arthur and Molly are presented as never having been with anyone else. (An OTP, if you will.) No wonder Ron thinks his sister's a slut just for dating different people.
Good point. And his brothers are so far shown as with zero or one girlfriend each. Of course, that makes Ron a slut himself. (Well, I guess making out in the common room does that.)
Another possibility is that Hagrid merely became this guy Ogg's apprentice, and didn't take over the whole job until later.
That's what I assumed, esp since Hagrid was a 13-year-old dropout. But then I've always been confused by the way JKR uses both "groundskeeper" and "gamekeeper."
The Greek Sphinx asks Oedipus the riddle "What goes on four legs at dawn, two legs at midday, and three legs at night?" The answer of course is a human being -- Oedipus himself.
And Harry will walk with Cedric's help, then stand up on his own two feet to Voldemort, and then carry Cedric back.
The answer to Harry's riddle is a spider, which he will shortly face in the maze. I don't think I've ever heard a theory suggesting a deeper meaning for it, but we could start now!
"Which creature would you be unwilling to kiss?" JKR is being anti-Snarry.
You know what's sad about this chapter? Realizing Cedric never found out that Krum wasn't actually a bad guy after all. :\
IIRC in the movie version Harry tells him. It's funny, the Hufflepuffs are supposed to be "just and loyal," but they actually come across as suspicious and gossipy, Cedric sometimes included.
(Now I'm wondering about the "wise" Ravenclaws and the "brave" Gryffindors.)
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Date: 2006-02-11 06:43 am (UTC)Also, I could be wrong, but I don't think Ravenclaws are supposed to be wise as interested in wisdom -- curious and truth-seeking. That certainly would explain Luna.
You have a good point about Ron and the common room. Nice how he goes from being the House Prude to the House Slut in a matter of minutes, and with just a couple sentences from his sister to send him on the way.
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Date: 2006-02-11 01:17 pm (UTC)Actually, Ron didn't run from the fight with Ginny right into Lavender's arms. There was the whole Quidditch game between that, where Harry pretended to give Ron the luck potion. It's afterward at the celebration that he started snogging Lavender, because after the game he fought with Hermione again, saying that she didn't think he could be good on his own.
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Date: 2006-02-11 03:19 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-02-11 03:16 pm (UTC)It is more than minutes, but it is quite a turnaround for Ron.
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Date: 2006-02-12 11:28 pm (UTC)I agree, the Hufflepuffs are pretty consistently characterized that way.
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Date: 2006-02-13 06:45 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-02-13 09:39 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-02-10 06:23 pm (UTC)There's something hilarious in the idea that you've got one Potions teacher teaching 7 years and a castle full of students all by himself, sometimes with double classes, but the Groundskeeper gets an apprentice.
The answer to Harry's riddle is a spider, which he will shortly face in the maze. I don't think I've ever heard a theory suggesting a deeper meaning for it, but we could start now! There are an awful lot of spiders in the HP series...
I admit I remember finding this riddle pretty lame, maybe not even a riddle. Wizards are no hobbits, I guess.
But still the spider stuff is pretty consistent. I wonder if part of it is JKR being aware of herself as a spinner who's created a big web she controls, tugging the strings every now and again. And Snape would seem to be the most central there, in a way.
And in this condition, he's supposed to drag Cedric's corpse back to the Cup fast enough that the DEs don't catch him? That's almost as good as being able to wield a two-handed sword at age 12 with no training in CoS! Come on, Harry's a wizard, not a superhero.
The pain in Harry's leg takes a lot of convenient breaks, returning just in time to be cured by Fawkes, I believe.
You know what's sad about this chapter? Realizing Cedric never found out that Krum wasn't actually a bad guy after all. :\
Yes, but Cedric comes out of the wand and is a "reverse echo." Like most echoes, he can interact with people are around them and give directions about what to do with his body, etc., so I'm sure he found out about Viktor.;-)
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Date: 2006-02-12 11:25 pm (UTC)You're right, Snape should have an apprentice. How about a young Potions prodigy? A girl! And she could have violet eyes and be the last of the cat people and a flying unicorn animagus! :D
Yes, but Cedric comes out of the wand and is a "reverse echo." Like most echoes, he can interact with people are around them and give directions about what to do with his body, etc., so I'm sure he found out about Viktor.;-)
But the echoes only existed for as long as the wands were connected, yeah?
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Date: 2006-02-13 06:46 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-02-13 09:40 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-02-13 03:48 am (UTC)Covers the plot hole up nicely, if I do say so myself.
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Date: 2006-02-13 07:52 am (UTC)and I felt so smart too :(
Date: 2006-02-13 12:59 pm (UTC)Errr... uhh.. I mean...
ZOMBIE ZOMG!!!
Re: and I felt so smart too :(
Date: 2006-02-13 09:40 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-02-10 07:19 pm (UTC)Makes one wonder if the reason they eloped is because Molly unexpectedly got knocked up. ;)
That's one bad thing about Rowling, we don't see the consequences of all the "snogging" that seems to go on at Hogwarts. Do witches/wizards need to even worry about STDs, safe sex or abortions? And it's odd how Harry never tripped over any canoodling couples during his nighttime wanderings of the school. After reading book six, it makes you wonder how Harry managed all those late-night discussions with Ron/Hermione/Sirius in the Common Room if there were always couples groping each other in there.
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Date: 2006-02-11 06:47 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-02-11 03:22 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-02-12 11:27 pm (UTC)This is a question that probably must be left to fanfic, yet frequently is not addressed even then!
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Date: 2006-02-11 06:00 am (UTC)No seriously, I always figured it was a puzzle as well as a clue as tow hat was coming . . . I don't really think there's much symbolism to the spiders, but that's mostly because I've never viewed these books as highly symbolic. Most of the "deeper meanings" tend to revolve around name puns and not symbols. That or they are just referencing something in a bit of a wink wink kinda way.
I do wonder about the owl Harry was riding ealier, but that's about it.
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Date: 2006-02-13 07:24 am (UTC)I agree that it reads a bit strangely in both books (it rather reminds me of that game King's Quest. Or actually of any task-based heroic sort of game), but I also think that there's a reason behind both. Especially if you're willing to believe that Dumbledore wanted Harry to go after the Stone, so as to prove himself. (Has that ever been confirmed? Or is that just the impression that I get?). Then the tasks in the Tri-Wizard tournament are designed to be challenging, yes, but also potentially solveable by a sixth- or seventh-year student. So the tasks, especially the maze, tend to read a bit like Lupin's obstacle-course exam in PoA, with creatures and spells and situations meant to test the students' skills/study/training.
This brings up something interesting -- apart from any other motives she might have in designing the PS tests, the PoA obstacle course, and the GoF maze, these things, plus the failure of Umbridge's teaching and the success of the DA, seem to add up to an insistence on hands-on learning. Which is odd in a series that also places so much emphasis on libraries and research.