xf and hp with visual aids

[pauraque_bk]

I have an interest in cultural differences within fandoms, so I've attempted to chart out the different areas in my two main ones, with an eye to where the fundamental divisions lie.

I think I'm pretty clear on XF, but my observations on HP are as more of an outsider, as I've been in HP fandom only a tiny fraction of the time I've been in XF. Please feel free to point it out if you think I'm misunderstanding something.

X-Files and Harry Potter fandom charts

Comments

[chresimos.livejournal.com]

That's very interesting. And colorful! Hee. But I'm not quite sure what you're trying to do. Are you basing it on which types are more frequently found together, written by the same authors, or the main groups that tend to attract people, or what?

[pauraque]

Are you basing it on which types are more frequently found together, written by the same authors, or the main groups that tend to attract people, or what?

Yes, both of these are part of it. The latter is part of the basic information about the fandoms -- what pairings get written. The former is part of the cultural differentiation, though it's not necessarily true that the same authors will write in areas that are culturally similar. I believe H/Hr and R/Hr shippers share some cultural traits, but I wouldn't say it's common that people write and read both. There's the OTP mentality to take into account too.

My main interest is how groups of fans share the same attitudes and biases. I'm also an amateur linguist, which is why I obsess over the pairing header "dialects". :)

[idlerat.livejournal.com]

That was very interesting. *goes to pimp*

I haven't read around enough in different parts of the HP fandom to attempt anything so comprehensive, though I'm very curious about it, in particular about the importance or unimportance of the slash/het distinction. It's interesting to me in part because I think of myself as a Snape fan, without much use for the slash/het divide in my own reading habits and with both slash and het writers among my LJ correspondents. Sometimes it feels funny to me when slashers in the fandom self-identify so strongly, as if what they were doing were fundamentally different from what the het writers were doing. It's true that some kinds of things show up more in one kind of fic or the other, but there's excellent and challenging stuff in both, and I see their potentially shocking relationship to canon as more alike than different. I also know there are some others in my "circle" who read both slash and het...Lola, Resmiranda, you (right?)...and even say Kalina, who is an HG/SS writer reads a lot of Snarry. She thinks the het writers are more tolerant of the slashers than vice versa, which may be true in some circles. On the other hand, if you took in the whole of say WIKTT (the Snape/Hermione list, that has almost 5,000 members) you'd find ... I don't know what. A lot of young and international members, that's for sure. & a lot of defensiveness about the more traditional romance scenario, which to me qualifies as slash-unfriendly, or at best as having no interest in slash.

I do find it a little surprising, maybe problematic, that you class SS/SB as MWPP, neither child nor adult, and SS/HG as adult. I think of the former as definitely adult. Of all the pairings that have both characters as adults in canon, this is the most compelling to me. I'm also aware of the huge teenybopper element in the Snape/Hermione fandom, which makes it seem more of a youth oriented corner of the fandom, at least in part. Sympathetic!Snape is of course staple fare there, but it seems circular to use that to show that it's really an adult pairing.

I confess I've never read a trio fic (well, except Cassie Claire); I've read many in which trio members were hooked up, but off to the side.

[cathexys.livejournal.com]

I agree with idlerat (through whose link I came here). I rather thing of marauder as any of the 4 other than SS, whereas even though they may have flashbacks, most SS/RL and SS/SB are firmly on the adult side. In fact, for me the separation is almost less slash/het as child/child and adult/adult versus child/adult, so that SS/HP, SS/HG, LM/HP, LM/DM, SS/DM, RL/HG all kind of fall into the same dynamic of power differential.

Also, I'm kind of curious where you're going with this. I mean, XF and HP are fundamentally different fandoms (as you point out, at heart XF is much closer to cop buddy shows who, unlike XF, just happen to have the slash as their OTP, whereas HP is much closer to an ensemble show like BtVS with one clear protagonist yet sufficiently round other characters to provide a variety of pairings [and that may just be the reason why these are the two only fandoms I've ever been in where there is a multitude of separate and small archives, a lot of shipper wars, etc.], there is the serious age difference between a show with obvious adult characters and a series of books that start prepubescent...) Also, wouldn't you need a few more shows and the way they do or do not split up to draw any conclusions?

[cathexys.livejournal.com]

Actually, as I went back over it, there was one thing I found particularly interesting (wand hich has long puzzled me to no end :-), which is the M/Sk/K pairing (preferable in a BDSM and/or DD relation in the Washington suburbs, right :-). I used to read pretty much any two of the three, so that the threesome aspect seemed pretty easy to accept or even wanted by me the reader so none of the three was left out.

I guess, in Buffy, I (and apparently a few other folks) felt that way about Angel, Spike, and Buffy...I'd take any two and if they were all together all the better (of course, this was before canonical Spuffy, so I have no idea what's going on these days). And I'm wondering whether there were some W/X/B out there for the same reason...

Switch fandoms completely, in popslash, people are fairly open about who should fuck whom, i.e., while everyone may have one or two pairings they particularly like, I haven't really seen the type of protectiveness of one's pairing that other fandoms at times exhibit...so it'd make sense, that there is a fair number of five-somes b/c the more boys the better (actually has its own name, GSF)

So, I'm wondering here, would the same be true of Ron/Harry/Her? Can't separate any two out; let's keep them all together?

At that point, it really wouldn't be about slash or het but about which characters seem to belong together...and if there are three, all the better :-)

Also, have to agree with idlerat one more time. I think there's a difference in slash for shows where there simply are no good females so that any het will seem forced (TS, DS, TPM, SH, MUNCLE, PRO) or het in a show where the OTP is het (XF) or an ensemble show/book (BtVS, HP, WW?, maybe even OZ). In fact, personally, the only het I've ever read were in these latter fandoms, b/c I really don't care about a walk on character on any of these other shows because their love is so true!!! *g*

Sorry, I'm not sure any of this is helping, and my exposure to fandoms is somewhat limited (unlike the respondent for rushlight's survey with 53???), but there are a variety of things at play here that don't really come out, I think, with just a comparison of two...

(For example, I think one might actually divide the world into the friends-turned-lovers and the thin line folks...regardless of het or slash, people will read SS/HP as well as SS/HG b/c they work similarly...power dynamic, hate turned to love...M/K or Sk/K same thing...whereas MSR is much closer to Harry/Ron or any cop buddy stuff where it's not about overcoming differences but taking that next step...and I'm shutting up now...sorry :-)

[ellen-fremedon.livejournal.com]

Interesting point about threesomes/moresomes arising from simply having three or more favorite characters. I haven't seen a lot of Trio threesomes, but there is a fair amount of Snape/Lupin/Black out there, and I think it's usually written for just that reason-- any pairing involving any two of those three is great, so why not just slash all three?

[cathexys.livejournal.com]

GIP to prove your point *g*

I really don't know if I have a point or not, but it's something that really struck me in XF, b/c it was so very pervasive (and I wasn't kidding about the suburban curtainfic DD where SkinnerDaddy would keep his boys in line and then take them to the grocery store...I actually was gonna write a paper on it, b/c it was just so f!#$ed up :-)

[pauraque]

I haven't seen a lot of Trio threesomes, but there is a fair amount of Snape/Lupin/Black out there

Quite true. I'd say it comes from the fascinating dynamic between the three of them in canon, which may tell us something about pairing-centric fic in general. In a certain sense, it's really just taking canonical relationships and using sex to explore them -- a sort of reverse allegory?

[faelori.livejournal.com]

Are you serious? You haven't seen a lot of H/R/Hr? My OT3! Look harder... it is out there, I assure you.

Giddy From Band Review,
Fiona

[pauraque]

So, I'm wondering here, would the same be true of Ron/Harry/Her? Can't separate any two out; let's keep them all together?

That threesome does enjoy a certain amount of popularity; I think I've seen more of that than of Ron/Harry alone.

I'm not really sure how to classify Ron/Harry, actually, because I don't know the attitudes of the Trio fen well enough. Is R/H as marginalized as it seems, or is it fairly well accepted?

For example, I think one might actually divide the world into the friends-turned-lovers and the thin line folks

Very good point, though I think a lot of readers (myself included) love both.

[faelori.livejournal.com]

I've seen a lot of H/R, but it may be just the fandom I'm around. And I've been in the HP fandom less and less these days. I'll probably get into it again, soon. :)

[pauraque]

In fact, for me the separation is almost less slash/het as child/child and adult/adult versus child/adult, so that SS/HP, SS/HG, LM/HP, LM/DM, SS/DM, RL/HG all kind of fall into the same dynamic of power differential.

Ah, this is interesting. Is RL/HG a big pairing? I don't know that I've ever seen it.

Also, I'm kind of curious where you're going with this. [...] wouldn't you need a few more shows and the way they do or do not split up to draw any conclusions?

I'm not going anywhere with it, just observing things about the two fandoms I'm currently in (which is something I've done in several prior posts). Yes, I'd need more information to draw broad conclusions about all online fandom -- which is exactly why I didn't attempt to do so.

I hope it's clear that I don't have any kind of political agenda here. I'm a bit of an anthropologist at heart, and I like making charts. That's all there is to it.

[cathexys.livejournal.com]

Sorry, didn't mean to come across as all aggressive *g* I think there is definitely something there in the way different fandoms divide up and I loved the charts, colored and all...I just really was wondering what conclusions *could* be drawn with more info...I wish we could expand this to find some basic truths abuot fandom...esp. since many of us seem to just flitter from one to the other, and I've often wondered what it is about the source texts' dynamic that appeals...

As for HG/RL...I've seen them pop up as minor characters in some stories, but since the only het I've read has been SS/HG, I don't know if they are ever getting centerstage...

And so sorry about the pronoun mistake...I realized it after looking around your lj a bit...

[pauraque]

I just really was wondering what conclusions *could* be drawn with more info

Me too. It would be great to see a whole slew of charts, or even just to get a notion of how the broadest divisions are drawn in other fandoms.

[idlerat.livejournal.com]

Hm, I reckon pauraque has said this, but I think these just happen to be the two fandoms he's been involved with. But I thought it was interesting. The only people I've known in XF have been MSR folks.

[bethbethbeth.livejournal.com]

Just wanted to add, vis a vis the Snape side of the fandom, that the slash/het divide seems far *less* strong from my long-time, mostly slash background than it does in most other fandoms I've encountered. I've been involved in many fandoms in which the slashers would rather have bamboo jabbed under their fingernails than read any het, but I've spoken with very few Snape-centric slashers who haven't read (and enjoyed) Snape-centric het.

As a matter of fact, there seems to be a greater willingness among the slashers, generally, to 'branch out' in HP fandom and read het or gen fiction along with slash (regardless of whether Snape is central to the narrative).

Now, it may very well be as (idlerat quotes Kalina as saying), that the het-centric fen are, in fact, more 'tolerant' than the slashers, relatively speaking (which may have something to do with the old feeling of marginalization that many slashers felt/feel and which can lead to a sort of defensive insularity). However, when comparing adult slashers in this fandom to slashers in many, many other fandoms, HP is definitely the winner in the "Slashers Tolerant of Het/Gen" sweepstakes.

[pauraque]

Just wanted to add, vis a vis the Snape side of the fandom, that the slash/het divide seems far *less* strong from my long-time, mostly slash background than it does in most other fandoms I've encountered.

I agree it's less strong than in other fandoms, but *within* HP fandom, I think the Snapeists have a relatively strong slash/het divide. But in such a liberal fandom, that's not saying much. :)

the het-centric fen are, in fact, more 'tolerant' than the slashers, relatively speaking (which may have something to do with the old feeling of marginalization that many slashers felt/feel and which can lead to a sort of defensive insularity).

Yes, this is right on. That defensive attitude is also found in the real-life queer community, where anger at straight society leads some gay people to become isolationist, and aggressive towards any heterosexual references.

[isiscolo.livejournal.com]

Really interesting. (I'm speaking of HP now, as that's all I know.) I think that in terms of your charts, perhaps something like an organizational chart with little lines on it would be better, because then you could show the relationship of MWPP-era stories to both the Snape set (which is really a good choice for an overarching category) and the strictly-MWPP set, and show the distinction between current-era SS/RL, say, and MWPP-era SS/RL, because in some sense these are different characters.

I also think there's a large contingent of what might be grouped as the "Dark side" -- LV/[anybody], LM/HP, and I'd even throw TR/GW in there.

[idlerat.livejournal.com]

I also think there's a large contingent of what might be grouped as the "Dark side" -- LV/[anybody], LM/HP, and I'd even throw TR/GW in there.

Yes! Very well put. Maybe unreformedDE!Snape belongs here as well? It's an important sector of the fandom that has connections but also big differences with the others.

[pauraque]

I also think there's a large contingent of what might be grouped as the "Dark side" -- LV/[anybody], LM/HP, and I'd even throw TR/GW in there.

This is a good point. To some extent, the sensibilities of the adult side overlap with the sensibilities of darkfic in general, though of course the adult side has its share of fluffy romance and happy endings, and the child side has its share of darkfic (as the existence of the T/G pairing illustrates).

[cschick.livejournal.com]

You missed a (older) XF division: MSR with Maggie Scully/Skinner and MSR without Maggie Scully/Skinner ;)

[pauraque]

Whew, that takes me back. :)