om nom nom

Nov. 5th, 2009 04:43 pm
pauraque_bk: (Default)
[personal profile] pauraque_bk
This is a post about the phrase "om nom nom" and its derived forms such as "nom" meaning "to eat", "noms" meaning "food", "nomlicious" meaning "delicious", etc.

I believe that this is an onomatopoeia, imitating the sound of eating. As I recall, it predates internet-related usages and lolcats-related derivations, but I don't know by how much. (Wiktionary suggests usage in baby talk, which sounds right to me.)

The other day [livejournal.com profile] idlerat suggested a different etymology on Twitter: "I think I have learned the etymology of "nom nom." Jamaican Creole "nyam" = "eat" (from Ewe, a West African language)." I replied that I found this very doubtful, and tried to explain why in 140-character bits, which was hard, so here we are.

First of all, let me talk about the general misconception that when you find two words with similar phonetics and semantics, it's a good indication that there's a relationship of some kind. When the languages are not genetically related and there is no historical attestation of the word being borrowed, this is not an idea that works at all.

I offered this article, which goes into some detail about how likely it is to find random "matches" of this kind between languages. When you're dealing with two languages that have hundreds of thousands of words each, what would actually be surprising is if you found NO words that seemed to be nearly the same.

Additionally, when you go looking for words that are similar, you have to define what you mean by similar first. Semantically similar? "Nyam" means eat. "Nom" can mean eat... but it's not the normal word for eat, it's a slang term that has a lot of layers of connotation besides just "it means eat". (This one is actually not so bad -- often people try to claim words are related that have a much more tenuous semantic connection.)

Phonetically similar? "Nyam" and "nom" have two consonants in common. They have no vowels in common, orthographically, though to be fair I don't know how the vowel in "nyam" is pronounced. They're also very short words; coming up with "matches" of this type for short words is easier, especially if you just ignore the vowels, as many people tend to do.

So anyway, I think it's onomatopoeia. Why? How do linguists know what words are and aren't onomatopoeia? They don't, always, but there are ways to take educated guesses.

1) Ask native speakers. Doesn't always work, as we see -- native speakers can disagree and be mistaken.

2) Eliminate other possibilities. Linguists are actually pretty good at figuring out the etymologies of words that are borrowed, derived, or genetically descended, using the comparative method, not to mention written records for historically newer stuff. English loves to borrow words from all over, so the idea of a Jamaican Creole borrowing is perfectly plausible. But there should be written attestations to demonstrate it. The burden of proof is on the one who proposes the borrowing to show when and where it happened.

3) Look at formal characteristics. Onomatopoeic words can be (or become) extraordinarily stylized, but sometimes really do sound like what they're supposed to mimic. But it's subjective. To me, "om nom nom" sounds like eating; to Ratty it doesn't. They can also be given away by containing odd sounds that aren't normally phonemes in the language. "Om nom nom" doesn't fit that one.

But there is one that certainly fits: Reduplication is very typical of onomatopoeia, cross-linguistically. Ratty pointed out already that reduplication can serve other functions, which it certainly can, but this is a major one, and the only one that's common in English. (I replied that English doesn't use reduplication as derivational morphology, which I remembered later isn't true, when I heard Hannelore say "I'm not going OUT-out" -- meaning she wasn't going really out, out per se. But this isn't related; that's not the kind of reduplication we see in "om nom nom".)

4) Look at distribution. Some of the derivatives of "om nom nom" can be used as nouns, verbs, and adjectives, but "om nom nom" itself normally can't. It's an interjection that stands on its own, meaning something like "that's yummy", "I want to eat that", etc. depending on the context. This is also typical of sound-symbolic words, though they can always develop extended uses over time.


Some of the above I learned from Thomas Payne's published stuff on investigating underdocumented languages, though I can't think of citations for all of it.


Ratty also raised another great question: Why *should* eating sound like "om nom nom"? Why not something else? Why do English roosters go cock-a-doodle-do, but Spanish (or is it French?) roosters go cocorico?

Unfortunately this isn't really possible to answer. Phonologists can identify trends and likelihoods in how languages acquire and use their phonemes, but, you know, why does Latin have centum and Sanskrit have satem? Why didn't they both change the Proto-Indo-European word the same way? Nobody has a good answer yet, and I think for the same reason, we can't really ask "why" a given language invents sound symbolism in the way that it does. Again, there are trends, but no rules that can be used to successfully predict what the language will do.

Date: 2009-11-05 09:56 pm (UTC)
ext_36862: (Default)
From: [identity profile] muridae-x.livejournal.com
I love your language posts. They always give me food for thought.

And now I'm hungry. Darn it.

Date: 2009-11-05 10:00 pm (UTC)
pauraque: bird flying (Default)
From: [personal profile] pauraque
Oh man, me too. I could only tweet about noms for so long before I had to break for lunch.

Date: 2009-11-05 10:19 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] skywaterblue.livejournal.com
It's almost certainly from baby talk. (Though neither would I be surprised to find out it's an onomatopoeia descended from comic sound balloons. That's where fap is from...)

Om nom nom sounds like eating - in particular, the 'om' simulates taking a big bite in which your mouth cups the air, and the 'nom nom' replicates chewing in a more abstract way.

Date: 2009-11-05 11:42 pm (UTC)
pauraque: bird flying (Default)
From: [personal profile] pauraque
That's how I hear it too. You'd expect a sound-symbolic word for eating to have some [m] going on because it's obviously the sound of closing your mouth. (Supposedly that's where baby talk "mama" comes from, also a common one cross-linguistically.)

Date: 2009-11-06 12:04 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] skywaterblue.livejournal.com
Cookie monster sounds super reasonable to me too - om nom nom in wikipedia leads to him.

Date: 2009-11-06 12:27 am (UTC)
pauraque: bird flying (Default)
From: [personal profile] pauraque
I didn't even think of checking there! I just went straight to the dictionaries.

Date: 2009-11-05 10:49 pm (UTC)
aunty_marion: iGranny (iGranny)
From: [personal profile] aunty_marion
I always see it as a cognate of the *English* Yum yum yum - with an 'um' at the beginning, as it were. I think that 'nyam' is on a line between those as well. Pretty onomatopoeic, I'd agree!

I suspect some of the difference there is due to the vowel shifts between 'English English' and 'American English', too. Mind you, which way the 'phrase' went is anybody's guess - if it's from the Creole originally, then it went from the Americas to England; or the Creole speakers could have picked it up from the English slave-owners (or whoever) as 'yum yum', rephrased it to suit themselves, and passed it on to American English-speakers as 'omnomnom'.

Or, of course, I could be completely and utterly wrong. ;-D

Date: 2009-11-05 11:40 pm (UTC)
pauraque: bird flying (Default)
From: [personal profile] pauraque
[livejournal.com profile] idlerat brought up the Creole word by saying it had a known etymology from an African language, but to be fair, that doesn't preclude influence from English. Creole languages develop in the first place (in their early pidgin phase) due to contact between speakers who are trying to understand each other, so it would be sensible to adopt a word that suggested its meaning to both Africans and Brits/Americans.

I hadn't considered "nom" coming from "yum" via an American dialect specifically, but it could be!

Date: 2009-11-05 11:49 pm (UTC)
aunty_marion: iGranny (iGranny)
From: [personal profile] aunty_marion
I've heard, from American friends (and seen in print), 'nummy' to mean 'delicious' (or 'num num num'), which I've always thought of as the American version of 'yummy'. So I suppose omnomnom <--> num num num <--> yum yum yum, possibly. (And the Sesame Street popularisation, mentioned below, is a very plausible scenario, too. I don't know it personally (never watched it myself!), but it does sound reasonable.

Date: 2009-11-05 11:51 pm (UTC)
pauraque: bird flying (Default)
From: [personal profile] pauraque
"Nummy" does mean "yummy", though to my ear it's a bit more babyish. An adult might say the linguine was yummy in all seriousness, but probably not nummy unless they were trying to be cute. But it's very interesting that it's an American thing.

Date: 2009-11-05 11:06 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thimble-kiss.livejournal.com
As I recall, it predates internet-related usages and lolcats-related derivations, but I don't know by how much. (Wiktionary suggests usage in baby talk, which sounds right to me.)

'Yum' is 'nam' in Norwegian, often repeated, and something yummy can be called 'nam-nam' (noun) ... I'd think it's baby talk in origin, I remember viscerally sitting feeding my kids baby porridge when they were wee, and saying 'nam, nam' to encourage and motivate. ;)

Interesting stuff! And I agree with Muridae, all the 'noms' made me hungry for something ... nommy, I suppose. :)

Date: 2009-11-05 11:11 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thimble-kiss.livejournal.com
Oh, and as a probably dubious vote for the onomatopoeic argument, the kids and I have long agreed that the the little meows our cats make in between bites when they come in and throw themselves ravenous at a bowl of fish sound exactly like 'nam, nam, nam'. *grin*

Date: 2009-11-05 11:32 pm (UTC)
pauraque: bird flying (Default)
From: [personal profile] pauraque
There are a few good and amusing examples of this on YouTube! Some sound more like nam, some sound more like yum. This is one of the cutest: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blVEC0ERdnE

To me it seems that "yum yum" is the more standard one in English. Anyone would say that to a baby, whereas I'd be a bit surprised to hear an older person say "nom nom". Maybe it's newer.

Date: 2009-11-06 08:15 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thimble-kiss.livejournal.com
Gah, that video is a soft kitten punch to the gut! So adorable! And all the other videos over the same theme – apparently kitties do say 'om nom nom' all over the world. :)

I'd never registered the 'om nom nom' phrase at all until it suddenly was everywhere on the internet, but of course I don't hear English spoken all around me every day either.

Date: 2009-11-06 03:47 pm (UTC)
pauraque: bird flying (Default)
From: [personal profile] pauraque
I've never had a cat that did that, so I wouldn't have known if not for the intertubes. No wonder it became associated with lolcats!

Date: 2009-11-05 11:12 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] arclevel.livejournal.com
A couple weeks ago, my brother told my nephew that it was from Cookie Monster on Sesame Street, which I hadn't thought about, but it certainly does sound like what he says when he chows down. Now, whether *that* was originally derived from onomatopoeia, baby talk, or both, I couldn't say.

Date: 2009-11-05 11:34 pm (UTC)
pauraque: bird flying (Default)
From: [personal profile] pauraque
Ohh, good catch there. He does say that! Even if Sesame Street didn't originate it, I'm sure it encouraged the spread of it.

Date: 2009-11-05 11:56 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lilacsigil.livejournal.com
I can remember my mother spoon-feeding my youngest brother and saying, "Here comes the aeroplane, nom, nom." That brother is now 28. It's a different vowel sound to the American "nom", though - the American one sounds like "narm" to me!

Date: 2009-11-06 12:28 am (UTC)
pauraque: bird flying (Default)
From: [personal profile] pauraque
Right, that's how Americans say it. What does your version rhyme with?

Date: 2009-11-06 12:39 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lilacsigil.livejournal.com
IPA has the vowel as ɔ according to this chart. I don't think that exists in American English.

Date: 2009-11-06 02:27 am (UTC)
pauraque: bird flying (Default)
From: [personal profile] pauraque
It does in some dialects, though not mine. Some Americans have [kɑt] "cot" vs. [kɔt] "caught", but for me they rhyme and both have [ɑ].

Date: 2009-11-06 03:57 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lilacsigil.livejournal.com
Whereas, to me, "cot" is [kɔt]!

The Japanese onomatopoeia hypothesis in the comment below mine is definitely not right, though - Japanese doesn't have m as a final syllable.

Date: 2009-11-06 05:06 am (UTC)
pauraque: bird flying (Default)
From: [personal profile] pauraque
Not phonemically, no, though it does sometimes appear as an allophone of final /n/. (The English loanword hansum comes to mind.)

Date: 2009-11-06 05:19 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lilacsigil.livejournal.com
That's ハンサム (hansamu) though - the m isn't actually a final consonant. The -u sound is very quiet, but it's there.

Date: 2009-11-06 05:22 am (UTC)
pauraque: bird flying (Default)
From: [personal profile] pauraque
I was misinformed then, my mistake! Those tricky voiceless vowels. :)

Date: 2009-11-06 05:53 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lilacsigil.livejournal.com
The younger the speaker, the less you can hear it! Maybe it will be -m in a few decades...

Date: 2009-11-06 03:42 pm (UTC)
pauraque: bird flying (Default)
From: [personal profile] pauraque
Very probably; voiceless vowels tend to be an unstable feature and disappear over time. Japanese may have retained them longer because writing systems are a stabilizing force. You see and write the syllable, and have that constant reminder that the vowel is "supposed to" be there.

Date: 2009-11-05 11:57 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] caesia390.livejournal.com
I thought it was a cute Japanese phrase like "Wai!" that made it over into English via geek culture, but if it's been around in English for more than a decade or so... probably not.

Baby talk --> Cookie Monster --> General American Public sounds both reasonable and delightful.

Re: Why do languages change specific words the way they do? I would guess there aren't "rules" for it because the systems are so complicated - it'd be like flipping a coin and trying to figure out exactly why it landed on heads, taking into account particles in the air and the rotation of the earth, etc. It's impossible to predict exactly what will happen in a specific instance; much simpler to work with trends and probabilities, like you said. Half the time a flipped coin lands on heads... most of the time in X situation [insert appropriate example of linguistic trend here].

These sorts of questions are why I think about going into systems research.

Date: 2009-11-06 12:31 am (UTC)
pauraque: bird flying (Default)
From: [personal profile] pauraque
I would guess there aren't "rules" for it because the systems are so complicated - it'd be like flipping a coin and trying to figure out exactly why it landed on heads...

Yeah. Not that people don't try to do it. Occasionally you hear people trying to make arguments from geography or weather patterns, suggesting that certain sound changes are more likely in certain types of areas. Nothing substantial has ever come of it, and I think your coin-toss analogy is apt.

Date: 2009-11-06 01:02 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] amanuensis1.livejournal.com
I've heard "um num num!" (or alternatively, "nummy nummy!" used as baby talk for "eat it all up!" or "yummy!" for years and years. The first time I saw "om nom nom" on the internet I knew exactly what it was saying and thought the spelling was darling.

Date: 2009-11-06 02:41 am (UTC)
pauraque: bird flying (Default)
From: [personal profile] pauraque
I can't remember ever not knowing what it meant, but I hadn't quite made the baby talk connection. Of course it makes perfect sense, as lolspeak owes a lot to baby talk.

Date: 2009-11-06 07:10 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] black-dog.livejournal.com
A couple of people are already ahead of me with "num num num" as baby talk. That's been around for a long time, I think . . . I originally thought "om nom nom" was just a version of it, perhaps in cat languge.

Anyway, I guess baby-talk is likely to be onomatopoeic, so a vote for you!

Date: 2009-11-06 03:49 pm (UTC)
pauraque: bird flying (Default)
From: [personal profile] pauraque
It's been twenty years since I lived around a baby, so maybe that's why it didn't immediately strike me!

Profile

pauraque_bk: (Default)
pauraque_bk

April 2017

S M T W T F S
      1
23 4 5678
91011 12 13 1415
16171819202122
23242526272829
30      

Most Popular Tags

Style Credit

Expand Cut Tags

No cut tags
Page generated Jul. 8th, 2025 08:27 pm
Powered by Dreamwidth Studios