Two questions

[pauraque_bk]

#1: What do you call it when you support a pairing that is canon and always has been? To me "shipping" means it's a potential pairing that you'd like to see, so it sounds weird when I try to apply it to something that is already happening. Although, I don't find it weird when applied to a pairing that was once only potential and then later became canon, like it sounds natural to talk about "Harry/Ginny shippers". But maybe that's because I'm used to hearing it. But if I love (let's say) Sarek/Amanda and write fic about them all the time, am I a Sarek/Amanda shipper? Does that sound weird to anyone but me? Do I just say I love Sarek/Amanda and that's it?

I'm actually having a hard time thinking of a good example of a fandom where lots of people love a prominent always-canon pairing; the ones I can think of generally have to do with pairings of tertiary characters. But then, are there a lot of source materials where the primary characters are in stable relationships?


#2: Do any of you have a portable DVD player that works really well? We had one I loved and it broke and isn't made anymore, and the replacement we got was sufficiently disappointing that we returned it. The main issue was that the aspect ratio setting did not work, like we knew where the setting was and choosing the different options did nothing. It wasn't defective, or if it was, the one on the sales floor was too. All the other ones had really screwy controls (looking at you, Sony).

I don't suppose we need a portable DVD player, but it is nice to have when you want to watch a movie but you also want to lie in bed.

Comments

[lilacsigil.livejournal.com]

I think it's still called shipping even if it's canon - you just don't need to discuss it as much! White Collar, for example, has Peter/El shippers (canon) as well as Peter/Neal and Peter/El/Neal.

[pauraque]

I guess it depends whether you define shipping mostly as the activity of hoping for it to happen, or mostly as the activity of creating/enjoying fanworks about it. Often they coincide, but not always!

[atdelphi.livejournal.com]

My inclination would be to still use shipper, if I were talking about a pairing that I was actively creating fanworks for, because there's something active about the word. I see the distinction you're drawing, though, and I think that maybe the alternative would be to say that you're a Sarek/Amanda fan.

(Also, I am ridiculously pleased you used that example, because that's my favourite TOS ship/pairing/duo/whatever you'd like to call it.)

[pauraque]

Yeah, it's something you do actively, for sure. Either you're actively hoping for the pairing to happen in canon, or you're creating fanworks, but usually both. I guess I always thought the hoping-for-canon part was what mostly defined a shipper, and a large part of why I've never identified myself as one in any fandom. I like lots of pairings but I rarely think "they should get together in canon".

Sarek/Amanda = awesome!

[atdelphi.livejournal.com]

I can't say I've ever shipped a pairing that had any realistic chance of happening in canon. The most I ever hope for is at least one of my ships of choice in any fandom not being invalidated (or, after my experience with Harry Potter, not having at least half of every favourite pairing killed off). So I guess I've never considered that "rooting for" element as being integral to the term as I use it, although I can definitely see how it can be interpreted as being so, given the origin of the term in the X-Files fandom and the later "shipping war" usage.

[pauraque]

I'm not sure it originated in XF, but XF definitely popularized it as a contrast between MSR supporters and what we used to call "noromos". (I'm not sure "shipper" has a commonly understood antonym anymore.)

In a fandom like HP it makes sense for shipping to have a broader meaning, with a large cast of beloved secondary and tertiary characters to whom anything could happen, rather than a strict "will they or won't they" binary. I also think within the slash-focused areas of fandom, there is less tendency to be heavily invested in canonical romantic developments. Though, as you say, you may be invested in not having things happen that make it harder for your preferred fanworks to fit in.

There's an asymmetry there... If what I really want is for Harry and Ron to get together in canon, saying that I'm a Harry/Ron slasher doesn't imply that at all (to me), and saying I'm a Harry/Ron shipper sounds wrongly gendered, though I suppose it doesn't have to be.

What do they say in fandoms where same gender pairings happen, but they're rooting for one that hasn't happened yet?

[atdelphi.livejournal.com]

Huh. See, it's possible we were moving in different circles, but I remember "shipper" coming about after slashers complained about MSR supporters 'appropriating' the term slash for the Mulder/Scully pairing. I always saw it as a het alternative to slash for pairings that (at the time) people believed would never become canon. Of course, if it ever had a commonly understood antonym, that was muddled from very early on, because then you had the "slipper" faction...

What do they say in fandoms where same gender pairings happen, but they're rooting for one that hasn't happened yet?

As mentioned above, that was actually my understanding of the origin of shipper. But what you might want to look into is what language the Torchwood fandom uses. Because there you have an almost entirely pansexual cast with mixed polyamorous and monogamous characters. I'd be interested to see if there's a difference between what, say, fans of Jack/Ianto (not a lot of buildup before they became a canon relationship), Jack/Gwen (a lot of will-they, won't-they), and maybe Jack/Tosh (as far as I know, never happened in canon) call themselves.

[pauraque]

Maybe we did move in different circles, or maybe we entered the fandom at different times. I watched the show from the start but didn't really go online until a while after. When I showed up, if you favored MSR you were a shipper, and if you wanted them to stay just friends you were a noromo. I don't remember a time when anyone used "slash" to refer to an unlikely het pairing, let alone a controversy over it. But maybe the history you remember explains why they always said MSR rather than M/S. I always perceived high tension between XF slashers and XF het-fans.

[atdelphi.livejournal.com]

I do wish I'd had the foresight to save these conversations for fannish-linguistic posterity, because I definitely remember a brouhaha of certain Mulder/Scully fans claiming that the pairing occupied a space previously the domain of same-sex subtext in terms of equality and likelihood of consummation - more Kirk/Spock than Moonlighting - and that it was sexist to reserve "slash" for m/m and f/f speculation. I seem to remember "relationshipper" being born out of this discussion, and Fanlore backs up that X-Files was the birthplace of the term. (I do remember being very surprised to see it used for slash pairings when the Snape Slash Fleet came around.)

Interestingly (and more germane to your question), the second fandom to adopt this was apparently Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman. While it took quite a while for that pairing to become requited on the show, it was broadly speaking a canon pairing.

I always perceived high tension between XF slashers and XF het-fans.

Ha! Yes, that's putting it lightly. X-Files was a highly strung fandom in general back in the day, and as a Mulder/Krycek fan back in the day, there was a lot of tension not only with the het fans but with the Mulder/Skinner camp.

[pauraque]

I definitely remember a brouhaha of certain Mulder/Scully fans claiming that the pairing occupied a space previously the domain of same-sex subtext in terms of equality and likelihood of consummation - more Kirk/Spock than Moonlighting - and that it was sexist to reserve "slash" for m/m and f/f speculation.

Oh wow. I bet that went over well. To be fair, MSR did look like a very marginal possibility for a long time on the show, and I would agree that it was not like Moonlighting at all in that way, but to claim a similar likelihood to K/S... yikes. So much is deluded about that.

Interestingly (and more germane to your question), the second fandom to adopt this was apparently Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman. While it took quite a while for that pairing to become requited on the show, it was broadly speaking a canon pairing.

Ah, I remember that show, though I didn't watch it much. This is a nice example because the viewers' outside knowledge is a large part of what makes the romance a foregone conclusion. Whereas it's outside knowledge (of cultural and TV network standards) that made canon K/S not worth considering as a real possibility.

X-Files was a highly strung fandom in general back in the day, and as a Mulder/Krycek fan back in the day, there was a lot of tension not only with the het fans but with the Mulder/Skinner camp.

Yeah, I remember that. I liked Mulder/Krycek a lot too but there always seemed to be so much drama surrounding the bigger pairings like that. I generally kept my participation to smaller communities for that reason. People think the shipping wars in HP were bad, but honestly it was a breath of fresh air to have fans of various pairings living in relative harmony. There was the famous acrimony between H/Hr and R/Hr, but I was mostly shielded from that by not caring.

[atdelphi.livejournal.com]

People think the shipping wars in HP were bad, but honestly it was a breath of fresh air to have fans of various pairings living in relative harmony.

Oh yes, give me a fandom with a dozen big pairings over one with two or three any day. Although, it does make me laugh to remember the very early days of HP fandom, when only the first two books were out, and everyone on the rareslash lists was sagely noting that the only viable slash pairing was going to be Snape/Dumbledore, and maybe a few people would write grown-up Harry/Ron or Harry/Draco...

[pauraque]

By the time I showed up in 2002, GoF was out, so there was more to work with. I remember thinking when I was reading PoA that Snape/Lupin was very obviously slashable. The first HP slash I ever read, though, was a Harry/Snape by flambeau, which is strange because I never had any particular affinity for that pairing. I just like flambeau.

maybe a few people would write grown-up Harry/Ron or Harry/Draco

Haha, they'd have to be grown up, right? I really enjoyed the descent into complete depravity that happened to HP fandom as I was getting into it. Fics would pass by without a batted eyelash that would have gotten you run out of town in XF.

I never knew why Harry/Ron wasn't more popular. It's always had its proponents, but nothing like the focus Harry/Draco has had. Clearly it's not a lack of people liking Ron, since you've got R/Hr. Slashers - y u no use Ron?!

[atdelphi.livejournal.com]

I think the timing had a lot to do with it. The HP series managed to coincide with young people having a lot more unfettered access to the internet, and I would think that having those young people writing about the kids had some influence on older writers feeling free to write about them too. That in turn coincided with the spread of fandom off mailing lists and the increasing feasibility of posting things more anonymously or pseudonymously, which I think was an instrumental step towards the wonderful depravity we enjoy today. *g*

I never knew why Harry/Ron wasn't more popular. It's always had its proponents, but nothing like the focus Harry/Draco has had.

I almost wonder if it has to do with the popularity of Hermione among fanwriters. Sure, she and Ron got villainized in a lot of early Harry/Draco, but my impression is that she never got the treatment that female characters often got in other fandoms when they were in between a potential buddy pairing. Maybe it was because of her pre-sexuality or just because her swottiness spoke to a lot of fandom folk, but it seemed in early slash that if either Harry or Ron were being paired with someone else, the other would usually end up with Hermione. It really is odd, though, because I do remember when there was only one or two Harry/Ron stories around, but a whole lot more of the other Gryffindor boys (Percy/Oliver, Percy/Neville, Dean/Seamus, Seamus/Neville...)

[pauraque]

my impression is that she never got the treatment that female characters often got in other fandoms when they were in between a potential buddy pairing.

I think you're right. In many fandoms there's a lot of vitriolic character hate, especially of female characters, that gets really tiresome and uncomfortable. I always found there was much less of that in HP; people who didn't like some character tended to just ignore them. I can recall a few who did the teeth-gnashing hatred thing, but I think they were viewed as kind of batty by the majority.

[cschick.livejournal.com]

Interestingly (and more germane to your question), the second fandom to adopt this was apparently Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman. While it took quite a while for that pairing to become requited on the show, it was broadly speaking a canon pairing.

We are talking about the term shippers here? Pretty soon after the XF "romantics" started using it, it worked its way into Forever Knight fandom and eventually into Star Trek. Those three fandoms, all focused around usenet groups, were extremely interconnected at that time.

What I find hilarious though is that FK was all about the name-smashing names for their ships and that went away for a while when FK died, but it's back in a big way in most current fandoms.

[atdelphi.livejournal.com]

I do remember "Nanette," but for some reason it's the more fanciful pairing names that I remember from FK, like "Immortal Beloved" and of course, my favourite, "The Unnamed Faction."

I seem to remember that smushed names had their big resurgence around the time that the tabloids started with "Bennifer" and the like, but I've always wondered which direction that went in—if fandom was influenced by the paparazzi or if someone in the paparazzi got the idea from fandom.

[cschick.livejournal.com]

[Multiple] Independent origination of a common idea from some sort of social unconscious? ;) Fandom seems to seize on a lot of those types of things.

[atdelphi.livejournal.com]

Oh, quite probable. Given how RPF was really coming out into the open around the same time, however, I do like to imagine that there's more crossover between amateur fandom and professional fandom than the latter would have us believe. *g*

[pauraque]

I had the impression that name-smushing for ships has also always been common in anime-related fandoms. I don't know if that came from Japanese fans themselves and migrated to English speaking fans, or what was going on there.

[caesia390.livejournal.com]

Nothing really to add, but - "noromo"! I'd forgotten that term! I want it to come back! XD

[pauraque]

Yes, I am not the only one who remembers that word existed! I was one!

[thimble-kiss.livejournal.com]

I make the same instinctive differentiation that you do. It feels more apt for a ship that the fans are/were hoping and rooting for. Maybe it's because I first learned the term in XF fandom where it was mostly synonymous with rooting for the not-yet-happened MSR, so being a 'shipper in my head became synonymous with an exercise in either patience or futility (or both).

In HP, I can apply it gladly to any ship that was waited for and then happened, or a non-canonical ship. But it would sound strange (to me) to talk about being a Molly/Arthur shipper, for instance. They are a 'ship', so no reason to 'ship' them? Hmm. :)

[pauraque]

Yeah, I have the same feeling that my definition comes from XF. The doubt/hope about whether it would happen was at the forefront. For me it also sounds natural for a relationship that is/was canon but may not be lasting, like Viktor/Hermione. The idea being that you want them to stay together or get back together. It sounds odd with Molly/Arthur because there was never any indication that they would break up (though of course there's no logical reason they couldn't have!). If there were a plot thread in the books where there was concern that they would split, it would make more sense to me to say I shipped them -- I wanted them to stay together.