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pauraque_bkSome fascinating lines of discussion have cropped up in Chapter 9: Did Dumbledore think Remus was the traitor? And on the technical side: Can Muggles make Potions?
We've had a lot of spirited debate on whether Remus's treatment of Snape is malicious or not, so let me pose a different question. Obviously, Remus's actions did not placate Snape, whether they were intended to or not. Was there anything Remus could have done differently that *would* have defused the tension (assuming he wanted to)?
If the answer is no, what impact does this have on us as fan writers? If we write Snape and Lupin as friends or lovers, is it plausible? What has to change in the situation or in them as characters? What's present that was not present in PoA?
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PoA 10: The Marauder's Map
That's Marauder's, not Marauders', by the way.
A lot of fans see Snape as someone who habitually represses his emotions, but I don't see that in him at all -- Remus is the one who won't allow himself to feel, covering his reactions with calmly stated facts.
Past re-read posts are here.
We've had a lot of spirited debate on whether Remus's treatment of Snape is malicious or not, so let me pose a different question. Obviously, Remus's actions did not placate Snape, whether they were intended to or not. Was there anything Remus could have done differently that *would* have defused the tension (assuming he wanted to)?
If the answer is no, what impact does this have on us as fan writers? If we write Snape and Lupin as friends or lovers, is it plausible? What has to change in the situation or in them as characters? What's present that was not present in PoA?
*
PoA 10: The Marauder's Map
That's Marauder's, not Marauders', by the way.
He hadn't told anyone about the Grim, not even Ron and Hermione, because he knew Ron would panic and Hermione would scoff. (137)Hermione represents Harry's intellect, and Ron his emotions.
'When they get near me--' Harry stared at Lupin's desk, his throat tight, 'I can hear Voldemort murdering my mum.'I was pretty affected by watching Remus struggle with his feelings here. Remus copes with stress by maintaining a facade of calm and courtesy (as with Peeves, Snape, and as we'll see later, Peter), and he's very good at it. It must take a lot of pain to make his control waver, as it does here.
Lupin made a sudden motion with his arm as though he had made to grip Harry's shoulder, but thought better of it. There was a moment's silence; then--
'Why did they have to come to the match?' said Harry bitterly.
'They're getting hungry,' said Lupin coolly, shutting his briefcase with a snap.
[...]
'But Sirius Black escaped from them,' Harry said slowly. 'He got away...'
Lupin's briefcase slipped from the desk; he had to stoop quickly to catch it.
'Yes,' he said, straightening up. 'Black must have found a way to fight them[...]' (140)
A lot of fans see Snape as someone who habitually represses his emotions, but I don't see that in him at all -- Remus is the one who won't allow himself to feel, covering his reactions with calmly stated facts.
'I don't pretend to be an expert at fighting Dementors, Harry -- quite the contrary...' (141)Like Harry, Remus has some powerful inner demons for a Dementor to bring out. What does he feel when they come near? A small boy's terror as he's mauled by a werewolf? The agony of learning one of his best friends was a traitor?
His little ink self appeared to be tapping the witch with his minute wand. Harry quickly took out his real wand and tapped the statue. Nothing happened. He looked back at the map. The tiniest speech bubble had appeared next to his figure. The word inside said 'Dissendium'. (145)I'd forgotten the map included details like this, and I think a lot of fan writers forget it too. Clever, clever MWPP.
'[...]The information is hidden inside the chosen person, or Secret-Keeper, and is henceforth impossible to find -- unless, of course, the Secret-Keeper chooses to divulge it.[...]' (152)Peter first claims that Voldemort "forced him" to betray the Potters, but it's doubtful whether that's even possible.
'He suspected Black?' gasped Madam Rosmerta.This jibes with Sirius's assertion that Peter'd been passing information for a year. It also calls into question whether Dumbledore actually suspected Sirius, as McGonagall thinks -- why would he tell Sirius there was a traitor if he thought Sirius *was* the traitor? This could support the idea that Dumbledore thought Remus was the traitor, and was trying to trap him all along.
'Indeed, [Dumbledore] had suspected for some time that someone on our side had turned traitor and was passing a lot of information to You-Know-Who.' (153)
[Fudge:] '[...]A crater in the middle of the street, so deep it had cracked the sewer below. Bodies everywhere. Muggles screaming[...]' (155)McGonagall twice calls Peter incompetent on 154 ('never quite in their league, talent-wise', 'hopeless at duelling'). A moment later, Fudge unknowingly blasts that assumption out of the water.
'[...]but give him back his most devoted servant, and I shudder to think how quickly he'll rise again...' (156)Quite right, of course. Again, devotion is the key. Loyalty calls Fawkes to help Harry, and loyalty raises Voldemort from the dead (GoF).
Past re-read posts are here.
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no subject
Date: 2004-05-10 03:46 am (UTC)As you posted, Fudge asserts that Dumbledore knew there was a spy for some time. If Fudge's words are true, "Indeed [Dumbledore] had suspected for some time that there was a traitor..." (referring to Black, I'm guessing, as this reply is an answer to M. Rosmerta's question), I have to wonder who the original choice for Secret Keeper was. I mean, if Dumbledore suspected Black, why on earth would he not have said something to the Potter's?
Keeping in mind that we have no idea who performed the Fidelius Charm here, and it *most likely* wasn't Dumbledore.
Given what we know of Remus canonically, I also wonder why Dumbledore thought so quickly that Remus would be the one who was passing information? Hadn't Remus done everything possible to advance himself despite the lycanthropy? Also, did Dumbledore see something in the group's dynamics that would have suggested an upset Remus? Someone upset enough to betray his friends? Or was it just a matter of stereotypical bias on Dumbledore's part: "Remus is a werewolf, Voldemort attracts Dark Creatures, so Remus must want to follow Voldemort" line of logic? From all we know, Remus wasn't even considered for the Secret Keeper position.
For Dumbledore not to even consider that Peter might be the traitor, preferring instead to look to someone else, fits very well into his canonical portrayal. He's been proven to not always be the best judge of character--he hired Gilderoy, was completely fooled by the Moody who wasn't, etc...
Interesting posts! Keep up the good work.
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Date: 2004-05-10 03:57 am (UTC)This, of course, serves to have Harry keep drawing Peter-Neville parallels, which we're supposed to be doing here. Peter, as far as we know, is one of the 'good' guys. It's smart what JKR does here.
It also lends support to another of my personal theories: Dark Magic magnifies natural talent. Voldemort, of course, got much more powerful when he started delving into the Dark Arts and Tom was already pretty powerful to start. However, even those that are kind of incompetent probably thrive when dealing with that amount of magical power.
It makes me consider Crabbe and Goyle (Junior) threats and, well, Neville, as much as it pains me to say it. Yes, personally, I don't believe Neville will ever be anything but Harry's ally, but I do fully expect temptations to pop up along the way for all of Harry's friends. Kind of think of Hogwarts as the Garden of Eden with many, many snakes in their midst. Heh.
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Date: 2004-05-10 04:55 am (UTC)But we don't know why, although it's easy to guess that Sirius would have insisted on undertaking the task to save his best friend in the first place, and then passed it to Peter when he began to suspect Remus. I'm not convinced that Dumbledore believed Remus to be the traitor as well; only that he might have agreed to Sirius's suggestion for the switch in order to err on the side of caution. It wouldn't have been necessary to tell Remus, whether you believed him to be passing dark secrets or not; the less people who know about that sort of thing, the less likelihood of a security breach. Hurt feelings of friends aren't necessarily your top priority when dealing with matters of life and death.
And who's to say that the Fidelius Charm wouldn't have been negated by Remus's transformation into a wolf for several nights every month? He might never have been a candidate.
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Date: 2004-05-10 07:51 am (UTC)Lupin represses like a champion. Unfortunately, it seems to have encouraged his friends to take advantage of him, as they knew he wouldn't react badly. I bet there is a boatload of anger under that facade. I really want to know *how* he reacted to The Prank, and what he feels about it now, years later...
A lot of fans see Snape as someone who habitually represses his emotions, but I don't see that in him at all
I always laugh at that sort of characterization. Snape, who runs around at night, shrieks, points, threatens, screams some more, throws things, and generally makes a spectacle of himself? He's not repressed, he's *expressed*.
It would be interesting to see Snape acting out because he was *happy* instead of angry. On the other hand, that would be like seeing a live-action Tigger...
I'd forgotten the map included details like this, and I think a lot of fan writers forget it too. Clever, clever MWPP.
Oh, the boys were certainly clever, but so are Fred & George, and I'm just waiting for one of their inventions to *kill* someone. They're tricksters, not responsible young men. I bet MWPP caused a lot of havoc and many of their classmates have less than stellar opinions of them based on how they acted during their school-years. And that Map is dangerous -- it falls into the wrong hands, and the DEs have a handy kidnap guide, at the very least.
McGonagall twice calls Peter incompetent on 154 ('never quite in their league, talent-wise', 'hopeless at duelling').
I like Minerva, but I really wonder about her judgement here. She sees the past through rose-colored glasses sometimes, and has gone along with some of Dumbledore's stupider ideas. Also, she's great at the day-to-day administration of the school, but gets very emotional in a crisis (exactly the opposite of Snape, who is a mess in the day-to-day arena, but is extremely competent in crises).
A moment later, Fudge unknowingly blasts that assumption out of the water. '[...]but give him back his most devoted servant, and I shudder to think how quickly he'll rise again...' (156)
You notice that by trying to kill Peter and not listening to his explanations, no matter how pathetic they are, Sirius and Remus *do* give Voldemort back his most devoted servant, or at least the one who would stay with the Dark Lord forever because he has no place else to go?
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Date: 2004-05-10 09:00 am (UTC)Oh, probably not...I was just suggesting the possibility that Dumbledore might have thought it. However, I don't think Dumbledore agreed to a switch, if only because he testified before the Wizengamot that Sirius was the Secret Keeper. I don't think Sirius even mentioned the idea of a switch to him.
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Date: 2004-05-10 09:41 am (UTC)oh lords, yes. I want to see that now!!!!
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Date: 2004-05-10 09:49 am (UTC)Not having Harry there in the first place would have made things better of course but even simply addressing Severus as Professor or Professor Snape would have been less antagonistic. In fact, saying as little as possible would have helped. It seems to me that Severus really didn't believe for a minute that Harry was there to see the Grindylow (well, we all know that)and mentioning it at all probably annoyed Severus further - in a sort of 'what kind of fool do you take me for?' kind of way
A lot of fans see Snape as someone who habitually represses his emotions, but I don't see that in him at all
I agree. I think he can repress his emotions to a degree but a lot of the time he just gets *so* frustrated that he explodes. I wonder if occlumency only really works well given a bit of prior warning; Snape's propensity for explosive outbursts could ultimately have serious consequences for himself as well as others.
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Date: 2004-05-10 10:58 am (UTC)Totally!
Personally I really don't understand how Snape is able to keep his turncoat status from being detected by Voldemort. Snape has no ability to keep his cool when he's upset. He flies off the handle at so many things! It's really funny to me that the Internet seems to think he's really cool and slick, when he's always spitting and screaming. The Occulmency speech he gave Harry was kind of hilarious considering that Snape *is* a person who wears his emotions on his sleeve.
We keep seeing this over and over again in the book. He also does dumb things like pulling his sleeve up to illustrate a point about the dark mark ... in front of witnesses!
We discussed this at work and the solution we came up with was:
"It's only a kid's book. Voldemort isn't that bright anyway."
I would be really impressed with JK Rowling if it turned out that Voldemort knew about Snape all along, but we decided that plot twist was too good, thus a really long shot!!
One of my coworkers suggested that the "cool Snape" thing might be from the movie, as Alan Rickman, god love him, appears to be drugged, moving through his scenes with a sort of dreamy sluggish quality!! LOL!!!
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Date: 2004-05-10 12:34 pm (UTC)I don't know... I've always seen it as a brave thing to do. Exposing himself like that to Fudge. I'm guessing the others knew anyway.
As for Rickman's Snape, I am curious as to how Rickman will handle Snape completely losing it at the Shrieking Shack and afterwards. I want to see screaming and spitting, damn it. (Ok... maybe not the spitting so much)
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Date: 2004-05-10 01:23 pm (UTC)'So Black was the Potters' Secret-Keeper?' whispered Madam Rosmerta.
'Naturally,' said Professor McGonagall. 'James Potter told Dumbledore that Black would die rather than tell where they were, that Black was planning to go into hiding himself ... and yet, Dumbledore remained worried. I remember him offering to be the Potters' Secret-Keeper himself.'
'He suspected Black?' gasped Madam Rosmerta.
'He was sure that somebody close to the Potter had been keeping You-Know-Who informed of their movements,' said Professor McGonagall darkly. 'Indeed, he had suspected for some time that someone on our side had turned traitor and was passing a lot of information to You-Know-Who.'
'But James Potter insisted on using Black?'
'He did,' said Fudge heavily. 'And then, barely a week after the Fidelius Charm had been performed--'
'Black betrayed them?' breathed Madam Rosmerta.
'He did indeed[...]' (153)
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Date: 2004-05-10 01:25 pm (UTC)I don't know, I had the impression that he flies off the handle only when provoked by two people: Harry or Black. In all the other cases he seems collected and perfectly in control of himself and his emotions.
Of course, it's very difficult to say anything with any certainty, because we see everything through Harry's eyes and he is one of those who can make Snape fly off the handle. But whenever Harry spies on Snape and is not in direct confrontation with him... Do you see the screaming and spitting person there? I think not.
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Date: 2004-05-10 01:30 pm (UTC)I am not sure the kids at the hospital knew. But come to think of it, the Order of the Phoenix really has a very lax policy about letting people know about their double agents. Ginny knows, 'Dung' knows, it only takes one person to mess up and say the wrong thing, LOL!
I want to see screaming and spitting, damn it. (Ok... maybe not the spitting so much)
UPPERCASE SCREAMING!!! I SIMPLY CANNOT WAIT, POTTER!!!!!!
WHO KILLED MY MUM AND MY DAD????
JUNE 4th ANTICIPATION, THAT'S WHAT.
no subject
Date: 2004-05-10 01:37 pm (UTC)Harry Potter
James Potter
Sirius Black
Remus Lupin
Werewolves
Underpants
Harry Potter
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Date: 2004-05-10 02:07 pm (UTC)Coming to think of it, there was Mrs Weasley, Ron, Hermione, Bill, Pomfrey and McGonagall in that room besides Fudge, Harry and Dumbledore (also Sirius as a dog but Snape didn't know that) that's a lot of people and some definitely didn't know... Interesting. It was not thought out and Snape didn't follow Dumbledore's lead in this. I still think it was brave and desperate but perhaps not so well thought out, true.
I know what you mean about Ginny knowing Snape is a double agent. It completely threw me off in OotP. For a secret order they are not that careful.
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Date: 2004-05-10 02:34 pm (UTC)What about Neville? What about Fudge? He loses his cool with both of them.
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Date: 2004-05-10 03:31 pm (UTC)I think that Snape is a kind of teacher who can't comprehend that somebody may find anything in his subject hard to understand. When this happens, he labels the pupil (in this case, Neville) as an idiot and treats him accordingly. It's extremely rude, of course, but not a sign of his inability to control himself - merely of his unwillingness to do so.
I think that the famous "I see no difference" line belongs in the same category: there is nothing about losing control here; it's a deliberate insult.
Fudge is a different case. I suppose it could be argued that Snape lost his cool in the infirmary, and that he shouldn't have shown Fudge his mark. But I have always interpreted Snape's behaviour in this scene as a calculated risk. It's a desperate attempt to make Fudge see the truth. Not desperate in the sense that Snape panics, but desperate enough to justify the risk of revealing himself as a former DE. Maybe (probably) it was a miscalculation, but my impression was that Snape didn't act rashly but rather after doing some quick thinking.
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Date: 2004-05-10 03:35 pm (UTC)Werewolves
Underpants
Voldemort, Snape, werewolves and greying underpants - that's just put way too many evil thoughts into my mind!!!!
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Date: 2004-05-10 03:38 pm (UTC)Much as I love AR, he's not entirely my idea of Snape and for this very reason. Snape is very angular and jerky in his movements, despite the regular swish of robes and casual flick of his wand.
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Date: 2004-05-10 08:46 pm (UTC)He's also quite cruel to Hermione, in different scenes. Although she frequently demonstrates her understanding of his subject.
I think Snape is the kind of teacher who treats students according to house, not ability.
Goyle and Crabbe are, uh, "a little slow" (to be polite) and he does not bully them for being idiots.
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Date: 2004-05-10 08:52 pm (UTC)How could Snape possibly contain the brain-explosion that would give him away????
We need to start training a new Double Agent just in case.
McGonagall, YOU'RE UP NEXT!
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Date: 2004-05-10 08:54 pm (UTC)The way they operate they do not inspire confidence.
I think they are going to lose.
My plan is to marry Peter Pettigrew and become Death Eater No. 1's Wife.
Who loves rats?
ME, PETER, ME!
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Date: 2004-05-11 12:00 am (UTC)I think you've given me another plot bunny.
I'm still working on the Peter/Lily you asked for, by the way. It's not actually Peter/Lily so much as a friendship piece, trying to figure out how they interacted and how Peter felt about Lily as opposed to James, Sirius, and Remus. Mostly I lean toward a different kind of hero-worship. Lily's on a pedastal right now. I'm still toying with the premise.
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Date: 2004-05-11 12:21 am (UTC)Probably fanfic. ::shrug::
Either way, it seems to me that Snape's involvement as a Death Eater would be a matter of public record. A great deal of Dark wizards have been exposed one way or another, and dealt with it by either saying they'd been under Imperious or admitting guilt (or claiming innocence and being imprisoned regardless...). Snape might have been one of those who was tried but not found guilty of anything particularly heinous. Much like I imagine Malfoy was...though I could completely negate that by using the Malfoy fortune and influence as a factor for why he would've gotten off....
Argh. Don't know. :-)
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Date: 2004-05-11 12:26 am (UTC)No, he doesn't, but Crabbe and Goyle are Slytherins. Part of Snape's treatment of Neville has to do with Gryffindor/Slytherin rivalry, and the fact that most of Snape's worst memories involve a rather vindictive Gryffindor. McGonagall is harsh with her 'idiot' students equally because she has a sense of fair play; Snape has no such sense, and justifies his bullying of Neville through House politics.
It'd be interesting to see if this rivalry plays into Slytherin/Ravenclaw or Slytherin/Hufflepuff. Does Snape treat Ernie MacMillan badly if *he* doesn't do well on a Potions exam, for instance?
Hmm.
no subject
Date: 2004-05-11 02:56 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-05-11 02:57 am (UTC)Of course he bullies Gryffindors and not Slytherins. If Hermione were a Slytherin, he would praise her to the sky. But that is beside the point; what I meant was that he is perfectly in control when he bullies his students - he is not beside himself with anger or anything.
But as far as Crabbe/Goyle versus Neville are concerned... Well, it was Neville who blew up his cauldron on the very first lesson, not Crabbe and Goyle. And the first impressions are the strongest. So, I still think that Snape considers Neville a bigger idiot than those two.
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Date: 2004-05-11 11:59 am (UTC)GoF. He actually says that Snape is no more of a Death Eater than he, Dumbledore, is himself. That's in court, so it may not be common knowledge.
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Date: 2004-05-11 12:41 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-05-24 02:31 am (UTC)And that Map is dangerous -- it falls into the wrong hands, and the DEs have a handy kidnap guide, at the very least.
Except it seems that the boys somehow charmed it not to fall into the wrong hands, to some degree. Snape, for example, could not access the map, just got made fun of by it.
You notice that by trying to kill Peter and not listening to his explanations, no matter how pathetic they are, Sirius and Remus *do* give Voldemort back his most devoted servant, or at least the one who would stay with the Dark Lord forever because he has no place else to go?
Oi. Don't go too easy on him there. Peter chose to be Voldemort's devoted servant long before this point, and I think he entirely lost another option after betraying James and Lily to their deaths. He condemned himself. Should Remus and Sirius have listened to him, put away their wands and said, "Oh, well, I guess that's okay then." They were lenient in not killing him on the spot, no matter what Harry wanted.
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Date: 2004-05-24 06:51 am (UTC)Should Remus and Sirius have listened to him, put away their wands and said, "Oh, well, I guess that's okay then."
They *should* have decided to turn him in, not kill him. Chaining him up and setting off for the castle was their Plan B, which they only went to because *Harry* insisted. It says a lot about them that they have to be talked out of murder by a 13 year old boy.
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Date: 2004-05-24 11:29 am (UTC)They *should* have decided to turn him in, not kill him. [...] It says a lot about them that they have to be talked out of murder by a 13 year old boy.
::snort:: He certainly wasn't talking them off of a ledge; Sirius, even, seemed willing to go along with Plan B, once the (completely understandable) murderous rage had been vented a bit. Again, you're glossing over extenuating circumstances, such as the fact that Peter killed their best friend, and Lily, who they were likely friends with as well, while Harry may regret not having a family, but did not know them at all. Yeah, sorry, I realize there are a lot of Peter sympathizers in this area of the fandom, but I don't find myself especially appalled that they thought it a betrayal deserving of death and were willing to go through with it.
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Date: 2004-05-24 11:55 am (UTC)It's got to be fairly easy. As clever as the Weasley boys are, there were only 14 or so when they figured out the Map. A Death Eater who got a hold of it, especially one who knew how such magical artifacts are constructed, could have used it. Voldemort, for one, has *made* a 'thinking' text; obviously, he'd know the operating magics of such an item, and I wouldn't want the Map in *his* hands.
Again, you're glossing over extenuating circumstances, such as the fact that Peter killed their best friend, and Lily, who they were likely friends with as well, while Harry may regret not having a family, but did not know them at all.
The problem is that their willingness to kill makes them look worse than SNAPE!
He comes down there, sees what he believes is a mass-murderer (Sirius) and his accomplice (Lupin) who have Confunded three students, and he *doesn't* attempt to kill them, though he'd have a lovely first shot from the cover of the Invisibility Cloak as well as complete legal justification. Instad, Snape ties Lupin up and then says he's going to take Sirius to the Dementors -- the legal *authorities* in this case.
When Snape, who is a complete bastard most of the time, is more law-abiding than the people we are supposed to by sympathizing with, there is something very wrong going on.
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Date: 2004-06-14 03:01 pm (UTC)I think Voldemort could have tortured the information out of Pettigrew. If he tortured him until he told him. I don't think he DID but he could have.
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Date: 2004-06-14 03:10 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-06-16 01:58 am (UTC)Perhaps wizards do set a lot by loyalty - Sirius seemed to feel that he would have no problem standing up to any torture to protect James, so did Remus - and while Sirius is rash, Remus isn't. Maybe you're right and there IS more to this charm than meets the eye. Hm.