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pauraque_bkA few days back I asked how Dumbledore could not have known Peter was a spy. The discussion went on for quite a while, and many wonderful answers were proposed, so here, have a summary. I've left out the theories from my original post, though those were debated too. It was a long thread!
He knew.
-Dumbledore did know Peter was a spy, but didn't have enough proof, or thought he could Legilimens information about Voldemort from Peter without his knowing. He thought the final decision was that Sirius would be Secret-Keeper, so he was not worried for the Potters' immediate safety. [link]
-He knew or suspected that Peter had been contacted by Voldemort, and was trying to give him an opportunity to prove his moral strength. Oops. [link]
-He has foreknowledge of what will happen because he is a time traveler, and allowed Peter to betray the Potters because he knew it would ultimately be necessary. [link]
He didn't know.
-The problem was hubris -- considering that one of his Gryffindors might have turned would have meant admitting his own fallibility. [link]
-Dumbledore avoided using Legilimency on the Order members, either out of respect for them, or because he didn't want them to become disgruntled. [link] [link]
-Dumbledore is not as great a Legilimens as we think, and/or it was because of Peter's betrayal that he became a Legilimens in the first place. [link] [link]
Trick question.
-There was nothing for Dumbledore to find out -- Peter turned traitor not long before the Potters died. [link]
Many thanks to everyone who contributed their thoughts. Damn, I love fandom.
He knew.
-Dumbledore did know Peter was a spy, but didn't have enough proof, or thought he could Legilimens information about Voldemort from Peter without his knowing. He thought the final decision was that Sirius would be Secret-Keeper, so he was not worried for the Potters' immediate safety. [link]
-He knew or suspected that Peter had been contacted by Voldemort, and was trying to give him an opportunity to prove his moral strength. Oops. [link]
-He has foreknowledge of what will happen because he is a time traveler, and allowed Peter to betray the Potters because he knew it would ultimately be necessary. [link]
This is an aspect of the Knight2King theory, which postulates that Dumbledore is Ron Weasley, gone back in time. K2K is always neat to look at, though it may be slightly beyond the scope of this discussion.-He was simply trying to allow the terms of the prophecy to be fulfilled. [link]
He didn't know.
-The problem was hubris -- considering that one of his Gryffindors might have turned would have meant admitting his own fallibility. [link]
-Dumbledore avoided using Legilimency on the Order members, either out of respect for them, or because he didn't want them to become disgruntled. [link] [link]
-Dumbledore is not as great a Legilimens as we think, and/or it was because of Peter's betrayal that he became a Legilimens in the first place. [link] [link]
Trick question.
-There was nothing for Dumbledore to find out -- Peter turned traitor not long before the Potters died. [link]
Requires that we disbelieve Sirius's assertion that Peter was passing information to Voldemort for a year before the Potters died, and demands another explanation for where that information was leaking from.-Dumbledore is an allegorical-type deus ex machina. Discussing his motives and abilities in realistic terms is the wrong level of analysis for his character. [link]
This is a fascinating topic, and I encourage you all to take a look at whatdonnaimmaculata had to say about it.
Many thanks to everyone who contributed their thoughts. Damn, I love fandom.
Yet another theory...
Date: 2004-07-19 08:31 pm (UTC)I think Dumbledore knew that Pettigrew was a spy. Not perhaps through legilimency, but from one of his "number of useful spies" (PoA, uk pb p222), at the very least he suspected him.
DD has a long track record now of wanting to give people second chances and/or enough rope to hang themselves with... He clearly suspected fake!Moody, eg, but he let him discriminate himself before taking action against him. He disagrees with Fudge, but does not break with him until absolutely necessary. He knows Lockhart is a fraud, but allows him to to bumble through until he destroys himself. At Harry's trial he directs rather than states what *he* think is the truth. I think being somewhat evasive is part of his personality, he want other people to think for themselves (but will sneakily influence them).
I think DD would suspect Peter, and pay attention, but I don't think he would tell anybody else unless he had proof he was willing to use (and I don't think he would expose one of his own spies). Knowing Peter to be the spy (or at least *a* spy), he would make sure Peter knew what DD wanted Voldie to know.
But why then, didn't DD defend Sirius, if he knew him to be innocent? Well, my answer to that is, *innocent of what?* " A street full of eyewitnesses swore they saw Sirus murder Pettigrew." (p422). Nobody has reason to doubt the muggles, and even though DD might wonder about the Potters, there was proof (false, in hindsight) that Sirius killed thirteen people (in front of muggles, too), how does that make him innocent in anybody's eyes? As long as DD has no reason to doubt that Sirius killed those people he would probably think Sirius ought to be punished. And Sirius has a history of being rash with violent outcomes, DD must have remembered the Shrieking Shack history and how Sirius almost killed Snape for following them. What would he do if somebody *betrayed* him and the people he love? How about: kill them...
I think DD had a spy who was present when Peter came to tell Voldie, though, and I think that later, *Snape* tells Dumbledore that Peter and Sirius changed places, and DD thinks he finally understands WHY Sirius killed Peter and the muggles, but I don't think DD thought Peter capable of such a fantastic bluff or that he is alive. When Snape splutters and shouts about how Black is a murderer I think he genuinely believe that Black killed thirteen people after almost killing him, too. He does not claim that Pettigrew was innocent, the way Fudge, MaG and Hagrid do, he just shouts about Black.
This theory does not, however, explain what Snape thinks Black wants to acchieve in Hogwarts. He might think Black mad and dellusional, or even that Black has come back to irk him, but I realise these are weak points.
Oh, another thing. Sirius says in GoF that he was sent straight to Azkaban without trial. He was captured on the same day Dumbledore is organizing Harry's stay with the Dursleys. Unless Dumbledore had already been at the Ministry and made his statement about Sirius beeing Secret-Keeper it is unlikely he knew about this until after Sirius was sent away and the "proof" overwhelming.
ooops...
Date: 2004-07-19 08:41 pm (UTC)And I meant to sign... sorry.
- Clara