CoS wrap-up

[pauraque_bk]

All kinds of discussion in Chapter 18, but I'd like to call special attention to black_dog's comments in defense of Dumbledore, because they're way far down the page, and because I think he's the only person who didn't agree with my assessment of what Dumbledore says. *g*

The first part.

The second part. (This bit also calls Ginny's innocence into question, which I think is wicked interesting.)

*

THANK YOU to everyone who participated in the re-read. You guys are great. All the posts are saved here. (And the PoA re-read is here. Two down, three to go. [Or five, if I'm around that long.])

My opinion of the book as a whole hasn't changed very much; it's still not a favorite. It lacks the depth and coherence of PoA, as well as the theme of love that's so important to the latter three books. I have no idea if JKR meant it to read this way, but at the end of the book Harry is handed the moral that he was right to be loyal to Dumbledore, not that he was right to risk his life to save another. At every turn, the book is cheerfully cruel -- Crabbe and Goyle left locked in a closet, Hagrid carted off to Azkaban, Lockhart dealt a comeuppance out of proportion to his crimes (I kept thinking of Hansel and Gretl pushing the witch into the oven).

The movie version is a fair (in the sense of 'just') adaptation for the most part, except that it tacks on a sappy ending. Having read the book more carefully, I can sympathize with the urge to add some sugar -- the thing's downright nasty. This is a story where, when a little girl is rescued from certain death, her parents -- whom we're meant to like -- don't even give her a hug. [EDIT: Actually, they do, I just can't read. But Ginny's suffering still isn't given adequate weight, in my opinion.]

I'm also no more enlightened about what the book might once have had to do with half-blood princes than I was to start with. I do think the good money is on Godric Gryffindor to be the HBP, but there isn't a lot in CoS to support that claim, except the general introduction of the story of the Founders.

But, in any case, I certainly enjoyed all the discussion. I'll probably do PS/SS next, though not right away (I've got a merry_smutmas fic to write -- eep). If you fear withdrawal, there's a chapter-a-week OotP read-along happening at the_snarkery. They're up to Chapter 9.

Comments

[stellahobbit.livejournal.com]

Thanks for your insightful comments, and the opportunity to read what others think. I didn't make one comment during this session (it was all said before me and very eloquently) but look forward to your next analysis.

[pauraque]

I'm glad you enjoyed it. :)

[melpemone.livejournal.com]

Thank YOU for the discussion. I didn't get as much of a chance to participate as I'd have liked, but it was enlightening as hell all the same.

And I agree with you - I'm not keen on PoA, as a general rule, but CoS is definitely my least favourite. It more than serves its purpose as a part of the whole, and is likeable in that respect, but CoS is the one I've least re-read.

[pauraque]

When I started reading the books, there were four of them. If there had been no more after CoS, I probably would have shrugged and forgotten about them. It was PoA that sucked me in.

[gmth.livejournal.com]

That was fun! :-)

I agree with you about this book; it's my least favorite of the series. However, the film version is my favorite of the three so far (mmmmmm... Jason Isaacs...).

Looking forward to the next read-through. And to your Smutmas fic.

[pauraque]

I liked the PoA movie better, but I did enjoy the CoS movie as well, primarily because of Jason Isaacs and Kenneth Branagh. If the casting hadn't been as good as it was, I suspect the film would have been very dull.

[black-dog.livejournal.com]

Thank you for leading this discussion -- for the huge amount of work you put in, for giving us all such insightful (and fun) introductions to each chapter and for keeping the conversation going.

I couldn't keep up with this one in real time either :( but have been frantically catching up the past week, enjoying all the posts, picking up all kinds of insights about I book I'd really neglected in the past. I'm really looking forward to your read-through of PS/SS!

[pauraque]

You put in quite a lot of work too, of course! Have you considered posting some of your more in-depth comments to your own journal? My reason for asking is selfish, naturally -- I'm sure you say smart things in other people's journals too, and I don't want to miss them. *g*

[maidenjedi]

I've been following along with this, but not having my copy of CoS here at school prevented me from actually participating. Once again, thanks for doing these, because it provides some real insight and things to think on while waiting (im)patiently for HBP.

Do you really think Lockhart's punishment disproportionate to his crimes? He's spent an unknown number of years taking credit for other people's successes, using Memory Charms (which, incidentally, don't seem to be controlled by the Ministry the way other charms are....hmm) without any apparent discrimination, and when he tries, once again, to take the credit (and let a little girl and possibly two little boys die in the process), he's rendered amnesiac. I think it's perfectly just, almost poetic. It's a lesson, too, for Harry. The fact that we see Lockhart again in OotP, just as Harry's at a place where his anger combined with his desire to be a part of things could drive him to do unethical if not illegal things, suggests to me that Harry's (and maybe not Harry, but someone else - Ron, possibly) meant to take Lockhart's plight as an example. There are a number of lessons like that in the books - Quirrell's death, Snape's childhood, even Sirius' death.

Heh....$.02 I didn't know I was about to contribute ;-)

[arclevel.livejournal.com]

I mostly agree, here. I don't think it's particularly poetic, but then, I've never found that of any sort of comeuppance. Nor have I ever really found comeuppance funny, which JKR clearly expects me to (in a wide variety of places, usually involving Draco or Dudley).

OTOH, Lockhart here strikes me as one of the only places in the series where the comeuppance/punishment actually *does* fit the crime. Lockhart was quite literally struck by the exact spell he had intended for one of the boys. I don't think that he completely erased the memories of all the people whose deeds he stole (as opposed to altering certain memories), but they probably wouldn't have been the first. What I *did* think was overly vicious was that, upon being discovered as a fraud, the boys forced him to wandlessly accompany them into the lair of a deadly monster.

[black-dog.livejournal.com]

I wonder (and please thwack me if this came up in the discussion and I missed it) if Lockhart's guilt is even greater than we suppose, though. The series is full of cases where the Trio radically misjudge people. We know the Trio approached Lockhart about getting Moste Potente Potions from the restricted section because they assumed he was a fool. But was he, maybe, perfectly aware that the kids were risking themselves to solve the mystery, and planning all along to monitor them from a distance and do his usual Memory-charm thing afterward? It's a tenuous theory, I know, and it might be stronger if the potions text were more directly related to the solution, or if Lockhart hadn't tried to run at the end. But I wonder if it's within the capacities of his character?

[pauraque]

arclevel said what I was going to say. It's not so much what actually happened to Lockhart, but what COULD easily have happened, given Harry and Ron's behavior. They were far too eager to have him face the Basilisk, knowing he was incompetent to do so.

[seventines.livejournal.com]

Just wanted to say thanks, Eo. I really enjoyed that, I found out lots I didn't know, I thought about lots of things I'd missed. You and your flist are an insightful and thoughtful bunch of people. Enjoy your writing :D

[pauraque]

I feel very lucky to have attracted such a smart group!

[queen-ian.livejournal.com]

well its been very fascinating and a real eye-opener (though i havent ever been able to think of anything to comment, due to lacking the appropriate brain power) and i now have to go and read the PoA read through. but first id just like to point out:

'"Ginny!"
It was Mrs Weasley, who had been sitting crying in front of the fire. She leapt to her feet, closely followed by Mr Weasley, and both of them flung themselves at their daughter.' (pg 241, english edition)

[pauraque]

Whoa... you're right. Brain no workie.

My point that Ginny's suffering is glossed over still stands though, so do I get to keep a little dignity? :)

[arclevel.livejournal.com]

'Twas quite fun; I look forward to the next one. Thanks for fearlessly leading us, o fearless leader. :-)

[pauraque]

Thanks for your participation! You're a star. :*

[idlerat.livejournal.com]

Harry is handed the moral that he was right to be loyal to Dumbledore, not that he was right to risk his life to save another.

This is a very strange episode to me, the issue of personal loyalty in relation to Dumbledore (also evident in the moment when DD reads the name "Dumbledore's Army," but by far the most extreme here). It's one of the ways in which Dumbledore most resembles that God character from the Bible: thou shalt have no other headmasters before me. God that sounded porny!

cheerfully cruel

This was and has been one of my strongest impressions of JKR from the get-go, and perhaps it was particularly influenced by this book. She's ruthless (like Hermione? that's what folks say about Hermione these days anyway. Maybe I should start thinking of times when Hermione shows ruth. But I digress.) I do think this toughness is a strong element in a lot of texts that are popular with children, and a key to HP's success--not only commercial but artistic. Not that I particularly cotten to this cruelty, but I think there's an anti-sentimentalism in Rowling that is necessary to cut the extreme sentimental potential of a lot in her narrative, like the acidity in Coke cuts the sugar. I'm not quite nailing it, but I think something like this is a big part of why I like the books. I also think it speaks to her interest in writing about boys--Harry's resistance to showing weakness, e.g.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I really really enjoyed this. Thanks!

[pauraque]

I appreciated everyone's comments, of course, but yours were among the most insightful (and numerous!). I'm very glad you showed up.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

(and numerous!)

LOL! That's me alright.:-)

[chresimos.livejournal.com]

Thanks for doing this again! :D

I had everything open that I was going to reply to for the past few chapters and then it all crashed...argh. Suffice it to say that

But Ginny's suffering still isn't given adequate weight, in my opinion.

I agree. And thus the speculations that give way to the good T/G are born. >:D But. Even in a non-shippy context, one of the things I expected(and hoped!) to find in fanfic was more appropriate levels of Ginny angst. I was joyed by the little reference in OotP, to be sure, but I don't think anything more will come of the ordeal in canon, alas, alas.

Also I remember you talking about this movie and random gratuitous otherpost linkage is the thing to do, yaaay...

[pauraque]

Is it really inappropriate levels of angst, or inappropriate *kinds* of angst? I don't tend to read Ginny fic, but my general fandom experience is that when people go, "Hey, a character underwent trauma and was apparently unaffected. I shall fix this," what actually happens is that they don't know a thing about how trauma affects people, and write them being dramatically depressed and Evanescence-listening until they receive the needed comfortsex.

Um. That was a long sentence. Point: Is there any fic dealing with Ginny's experience here that's actually smart and good?

@:)

[chresimos.livejournal.com]

You know...I actually don't know. Much like the quest for good T/G, a lot of the interesting Ginny stuff filters in bits and pieces into other fics. But...it's the angst that makes it so interesting, and JKR's near total silence on the matter only makes it more interesting. Magical soul-stealing aside, that's some pretty serious betrayal of trust going on there. If the one person you extremely trust suddenly is all, "I am teh evil", are you going to be able to form very healthy interpersonal relationships? Or...I don't know. Maybe it pushed her into socializing with "real" people instead of angsting on her own! And if she's at the point in OotP where she can just mention it in a barbed-but-casual way, I want to know what happened in the meantime that helped her to deal with it, for that sounds interesting to explore as well.

Also, here is duelling-related Snape and Lockhart because...uh...spamming is fun!

[http://users.livejournal.com/_hannelore/]

Thanks so much for doing this, I'd really like to snag a moment sometime and read over everyone's comments. So many plotbunnies.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_hannelore/]

And an interested second to see fic dealing with Ginny's experience that isn't overly angsty or "fixes" everything.

_{shameless self-pimping of a 15minuteficlet inspired by a lunulet drawing of Ginny and the diary. What happens when what used to feel good feels wrong and bad. *simplistic*}

[thecoldacre.livejournal.com]

I friended you at the start of your re-read, to make sure I didn't miss any posts. And although I've been too afraid to comment (seriously, I thought that I had thought of every possible theory, but the insight that people showed for every chapter was just amazing. And they managed to express themselves much more eloquently than I ever could) I enjoyed it very much. Thanks.

[pauraque]

I'm glad you enjoyed it! I certainly did too. And ironically, I felt somewhat like you did as I was writing the opening commentary for each chapter -- Whatever I say, someone else is going to have something eloquent and ingenious to say about it that makes me look like chopped liver! But that's the beauty of fandom. ;)