Son, be a dentist / You have a talent for causing things pain

[pauraque_bk]

I'm planning to write some sort of analysis of the sadistic tendencies of various characters in the Potterverse, and thought I would try to make sure I wasn't forgetting anyone important. This is who I've got on my list of people to talk about so far:

Voldemort
Bellatrix
Macnair
Umbridge
Crouch Jr
Harry
Sirius & James
Fred & George
Lucius & Draco
Snape
Peter

ETA: Hermione
the Dursleys
Filch
Dumbledore
Ginny
Trelawney

Not that I think all these folks are sadists, I just want to discuss them all in this context. Am I forgetting anyone?


Oh, and GIP. Icon by sluggirl after The Super Dictionary. Glorious.

Comments

[vejgurl.livejournal.com]

Hermione?

After she locked Rita Skeeter in a jar, got Umbridge attacked by centaurs, destroyed Marietta Edgecomb's face and went completely Hitchcock on Ron's ass, I totally think there's a bit of a sadist in her...but she does it because she thinks people deserve it.

Then again, so does Umbridge.

[pauraque]

I do want to get into people's reasoning for hurting others, so Hermione would be a good addition. Merci. :)

[kaysha.livejournal.com]

The Dursleys!!

[pauraque]

Oh, I did want them on there!

[kaysha.livejournal.com]

:)

I don't know if Pansy/Millicent/other Slytherin kids would be interesting as well. I don't think they are ever shown *acting* sadistically (?!), but hmm, they (seem to) gain pleasure from other people feeling hurt/embarrassed etc.

[pauraque]

Well, I also wanted to cover sadism by proxy -- watching someone else be hurt and enjoying it. Because yeah, there's Draco's friends laughing when he bullies others, and then there's Peter laughing while Sirius & James bully Snape... I wanted to talk about that too.

[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

Ooh. The Gryffindors laughing at the ferreting. (Are there any houses without sadists? Ernie the Hufflepuff broods for like six months over house points and wants to see Narcissa's face when she finds her son hexed; the Ravenclaws steal Luna's things, and nuff said for the other two.)

[scarah2.livejournal.com]

Here's a controversial one, but what about Dumbledore?

[pauraque]

I'm open to discussing it, but I think he may fall outside the scope of what I wanted to talk about, which was primarily physical cruelty, from outright torture to physical bullying and withholding food and so on. So my questions would be (1) what's the nature of the harm Dumbledore inflicts? and (2) does he derive pleasure from it?

[scarah2.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah, the nature of it is mainly mental. But I do think he gets a few jollies here and there from little digs. Like when he decorated the Great Hall in Slytherin colors and then was all "PSYCHE, it's totally Gryffindor."

[atalantapendrag.livejournal.com]

Yeah... that was easily as vicious as anything we see Snape do to a student, and to a whole quarter of the student body in one blow in front of everyone.

[aubrem.livejournal.com]

yeah, stuff like this makes me really wonder about JKR. But then, it's all children' fantasy isn't it?

[pauraque]

That's true... but I do wonder if he wasn't mainly trying to encourage Harry rather than dispirit the Slytherins. Don't get me wrong, I think it was jackassery that he did that, but I don't know if it even really occurred to him that it was causing anyone harm.

[atalantapendrag.livejournal.com]

...if he doesn't know enough about human beings to think that would anger, upset, and embitter all of Slytherin house, he has no business being Headmaster. Isn't he supposed to be wise? He's Voldemort's biggest recruiter, with stunts like that.

[pauraque]

I happen to agree that he has no business being Headmaster! He's either cruel, or massively ignorant about the way human minds work. I happen to think it's the latter, but either is a good enough reason for him _not_ to be an educator, in my book.

[maeglinyedi.livejournal.com]

I agree on Dumbledore. He did leave a baby with a bunch of abusing people. Talk about cruelty. ;-)

[scarah2.livejournal.com]

Yeah he was all "But, it totally builds character though."

[megstuff.livejournal.com]

Filch maybe could be interesting.

[pauraque]

Oh, duh! Thank you.

[marksykins.livejournal.com]

Molly, maybe? I don't know if sadistic's exactly right, but there are definitely some passive-aggressive tendencies going on there. Or Ginny with her physical aggression toward her brothers, Zacharias, and Malfoy (maybe others? I can't recall).

[pauraque]

Molly can be aggressive, but I see her as being very physically caring... she loves to feed people, to clothe and house them. Physical danger upsets her in the extreme (eg her boggart).

I've never paid much attention to Ginny... can you point me to specific incidents with her?

[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

She describes the Sectumsempra as 'good', hexes Zacharias Smith for asking too many questions, crashes into him for being rude in his commentary, and is fairly vicious verbally towards Ron and Hermione.

[aubrem.livejournal.com]

Moody is pretty aggressive toward the bad guys. Does he sound like he enjoys the idea of hurting them? I'm not sure - I'd have to reread.

[pauraque]

I never got that feeling about Moody. Of course, you always have to ask yourself to what extent Crouch Jr was accurately conveying Moody's personality... we get very little of real!Moody.

[arclevel.livejournal.com]

To the extent that nobody noticed that Crouch Jr *wasn't* Moody, I think we have to consider that his actions, excluding taking Harry away after the Third Task, were consistent with what Moody would do -- specifically his bouncing of ferret!Draco, which certainly qualifies as flat-out torture; if not for physical protection apparently provided by being magical, Draco would have at least suffered a broken back, or more likely been killed.

Really, though, I think you could potentially do an analysis that includes an analysis of aurors as a whole, and Crouch Sr with them. Sirius states that Moody was the best auror, apparently meaning the most humane (ie, he avoided killing people), yet what we see of him seems quite nasty and merciless, IMO. Look at him in the Pensieve, where he wants to get every bit of information out of Karkaroff and then ship him *back* to the Dementors anyway. His attitude towards Snape, who Dumbledore has vouched for, is similar, and I doubt that Snape's genuine *fear* of Moody is that he's going to catch him doing something illegal and have him sent to Azkaban. This is the best auror? The one who's "decent" when it comes to civil rights and due process, basically.

Additionally, there's the fact that in the first war, Crouch Sr allowed Aurors to use Unforgivables on *suspected* Death Eaters, and Sirius implies that most of them took definite advantage of that. To me, that suggests that confessions were probably being tortured out of people, and others were killed in situations where the Aurors weren't necessarily defending themselves or others, and that it wasn't a last resort. I suspect some Aurors cared more than others about whether those who they tortured or killed were actually guilty. But then, I'm a pessimist like that. It could be an interesting discussion, even if your conclusion is that there isn't sadism there.

[simmysim.livejournal.com]

I can't wait to read the Fred and George one, and I really second marksykins suggestion of Ginny.

[pauraque]

The F&G one will probably be the most contentious... people get really worked up arguing about whether they're sadists or not!

As I said to Marks, I've never paid much attention to Ginny. Can you point me in the direction of where she behaves cruelly?

[simmysim.livejournal.com]

I think they're mild sadists, but it doesn't bother me cause they aren't self-righteous about it. They'll totally admit what they’re doing is wrong, they just don't care. XD

Oh my. I'd love to! These are only the instances where Ginny does something cruel unprovoked, if you want the ones where she's retaliating, it'd be a much longer list. >.o;

"Au revoir, 'Arry," said Fleur throatily, kissing him good-bye. Ron hurried forward, looking hopeful, but Ginny stuck out her foot and Ron fell, sprawling in the dust at Fleur's feet. Furious, red-faced, and dirt-spattered, he hurried into the car without saying good-bye.

[Mrs. Weasley] had been crying on and off ever since Percy had stormed from the house on Christmas Day with his glasses splattered with mashed parsnip (for which Fred, George, and Ginny all claimed credit).

"Oh, don't start acting as though you understand Quidditch," snapped Ginny, "you'll only embarrass yourself."

I realize this next thing isn’t really mean, but it certainly isn’t nice, especially after embellishing on Harry‘s rumor:

‘Thanks,' said Harry, grinning. 'And what did you tell her Ron's got?'
'A Pygmy Puff, but I didn't say where.'
Ron scowled as Hermione rolled around laughing.


Ginny did not seem at all upset about the breakup with Dean; on the contrary, she was the life and soul of the team. Her imitations of Ron anxiously bobbing up and down in front of the goal posts as the Quaffle sped toward him [. . .]

There’s more, but, yeah. She’s not a very nice girl at all, especially to Ron, I think.

[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

Her imitations of Ron anxiously bobbing up and down in front of the goal posts as the Quaffle sped toward him [. . .]

Wow. I'm strongly reminded of Aja's Ginny=Draco post.

[simmysim.livejournal.com]

I was just thinking about the similarities between the two, actually. I have no idea why we're supposed to like Ginny when we're so obviously supposed to hate Zacharias Smith, Draco, Fleur people exactly like her.

If it's not too much trouble could you direct me to said post? ^^;;

[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

Here ya go hon - http://www.livejournal.com/users/bookshop/570943.html

[atalantapendrag.livejournal.com]

You force me to send you this song (http://s50.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=3QYD5W1WPEQ8C1M15AJLW1SGCY).

[pauraque]

OH. MY. GOD. XD XD XD

Please tell me you have the whole soundtrack! I'd love you forever!

[atalantapendrag.livejournal.com]

Not the whole one, but a few others. Do you have a gmail account? I can send them.

[pauraque]

No, I don't have gmail, but yahoo allows a gig of space... I'm not sure if there's another reason why it wouldn't work. My address there is pauraqueo@yahoo.com

[atalantapendrag.livejournal.com]

Sent what I had, plus a bonus.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_hannelore/]

Millicent Bulstrode? Running out of names here, I think you've got just about everyone covered. Though Ron doesn't seem terribly concerned of others suffering bodily harm either.

[pauraque]

As far as I recall, Ron's brand of aggression is normal and not cruel, so I think he's off the hook. I have to narrow it at some point, or I'll end up talking about everyone in the books!

[arclevel.livejournal.com]

I'll end up talking about everyone in the books!

You say that like it's a bad thing.

[idlerat.livejournal.com]

*Trelawny*.

I don't think he's *sadistic*, but I was struck by Luna's observation that Ron can be quite unkind.

Aaaand- icon love!

[wolfie-thu.livejournal.com]

Looking forward to reading this.

[leni-jess.livejournal.com]

A promising list! I look forward to reading the analysis.

[amythis.livejournal.com]

Well, Hermione's parents then, since they are dentists.

[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

Ooh. Can't wait to read the ones for the twins and Harry.

(Peter's sadistic? You're the expert here, wouldja remind me, please? *slaps own wrist*)

[pauraque]

Actually, I _don't_ think he's sadistic! That's why I mentioned that I wasn't saying everyone on the list is -- I just wanted to talk about them all.