Why didn't Peter kill Sirius?

[pauraque_bk]

In GoF 32, woman_ironing said:

I wonder what stopped Peter from the making the more efficient move of killing Sirius and surviving as a hero rather than a rat? (Silly me, JKR and the plot of course!)

I started to say that it was possible that he meant to kill Sirius along with the 12 Muggles -- and with good reason, as Sirius knew the truth about his betrayal -- but ran off when he realized Sirius was still alive. I don't know if that really makes sense, though... It always seemed, with the whole cutting-off-the-finger and immediately running away thing, that he fully intended to flee.

If he had killed Sirius, what would have happened? Well, he might have been charged with the reckless homicide (or whatever) of the other 12 people, but since they were Muggles, and Peter is very good at wriggling his way out of things ("Oh, I didn't mean to hurt all those poor creatures, I was just so scared and I did the first thing that popped into my head..."), I dunno if that would have been too serious.

So, he'd be the hero who killed Sirius Black. But keep in mind that at that point, Voldemort was dead already, and Peter very likely knew it. Maybe he was trying to run from the other DEs (who might well blame him for what happened), and didn't trust the Ministry/Order to protect him from them, even if he did eliminate firsthand knowledge of his betrayal by killing Sirius.

What do you guys think?

Comments

[impinc.livejournal.com]

Hmm. What if this happened and, like all those AUs where Harry is sent to live with Remus and/or Sirius, he was sent to live with Peter?

[pauraque]

I would probably read that fic, is what would happen. :D

[impinc.livejournal.com]

Heh!

[g_shadowslayer]

I think Peter was trying to hide from the other DE's -- although he may have also been trying to hide from anyone who managed to see their way through him. Obviously, he's competent at ritual magic, but I don't see him as being so confident in his skills that he could evade/mislead/occlumens himself if extensively questioned about the Potters' deaths...

I'm still wondering who got Voldemort's wand back after the attempt to kill Harry failed. I've been thinking it over and just can't figure out how events would have played out: If Voldemort lost his physical form after the attack, his wand would have been lying there. If Peter found it and ran off with it, why didn't he kill Harry while he had the chance? If Dumbledore and the others got there first to find Harry alive, why didn't the side of good end up with Voldemort's wand? Are we just supposed to believe that they were so worried about the Potters and baby Harry that no one noticed it lying there? Or did someone take it in to the Ministry, and later a DE who worked there 'liberated' it? It's one of those things that bugs me...

[florahart]

Well, I can make up an answer: perhaps he needed a wizard still standing in the area because, um, because when the authorities arrived they would be able to tell somehow that the person who did this was still living.

Of course, that's idiotic, because really if the authorities had, you know, a grain of sense, they might have done something crazy like have Sirius take veritaserum or put his memory in a pensieve of be subjected to legilimency or or or or...

Heh. But it makes as much sense as any other explanation I've thought of so far.

Maybe Peter thought he wouldn't do a good job of standing up to the scrutiny?

[threeoranges.livejournal.com]

I was wondering why they didn't do Priori Incantatem on Sirius's wand to determine that he really did cast the spell?

[roooof.livejournal.com]

I think that's part of the whole Ministry getting so intense that they locked sirius up without a trial thing.

[threeoranges.livejournal.com]

Yeah, but there's a difference between "not putting him on trial" (time, expense and "it's obvious he did it") and not doing a simple one-minute test to confirm that his was the wand that committed the murder.

Of course, could just be that JKR hadn't invented "Priori Incantatem" until Book Four *whistles innocently*

[tekalynn.livejournal.com]

Maybe Sirius's wand didn't have a "sibling"?

[threeoranges.livejournal.com]

You're right, it's not "Priori Incantatem", it's Prior Incantato I meant. That doesn't seem to require a sibling to operate effectively.

[sophia-helix.livejournal.com]

Hmmmm. Did Peter know Voldemort was dead? I always took the situation as Peter still being loyal (mostly out of fear).

Actually, the "mostly out of fear" thing works too -- I think he didn't want to be a Deatheater anymore, but didn't want to trust the mercy of the Ministry either (nor the other Deatheaters who would come after him). It's made clear he only returned to Voldemort because he had nowhere else to go, so that implies he had basically been on the run from everyone.

I also think his killing Sirius was definitely the actions of (heh) a rat trapped in a corner. You had an astute observation about Peter's crafty survival skills in PoA, and I'm guessing the plan to frame Sirius for his own death sprung into his head about the time Sirius had the wand to his head.

The eternal question, of course -- how the hell did he end up at the Burrow?

[atdelphi.livejournal.com]

I don't really have an insight here, but this situation just make me wonder even more about 1) exactly when Peter turned to Voldemort and what role he played, and 2) how the DEs were organised.

If Peter wanted to live as a hero instead of run like a rat, one would think he would have stayed on the Order's side. Maybe part of what made him betray the Potters also led to a wish to make Sirius suffer in Azkaban instead of simply killing him? Also, it makes me wonder who introduced Peter to Voldemort - we know that the Death Eaters are only the innermost circle of V's supporters, and by Karkaroff's trial scene that even they only know a handful of other members.

I'd have to re-read choice bits of PoA to see if it's plausible that the link might be Evil!Snape, but as I'm a supporter of MorallyAmbivalent!Snape, I wonder if we'll get another surprise 'Secretly a Death Eater' revelation in Book 7.

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

One :

- Death Eaters were after the person who betrayed Voldemort, they might not necessarly know yet it was him, but he was safer "dead", definitly
- He needed to frame Sirius. A dead with those 12 Muggles Sirius wouldn't have been as useful as a culprit.
- I think a part of Peter rejoyced thinking of Sirius in Azkaban, such a fitting end for his arrogance ! It's a very ironic (vengeance ?) in its cruaulty.

[i-smile.livejournal.com]

If he killed Sirius, there'd be no chance that someone who decided to investigate (...if they ever do) could figure out what happened. But at the same time, it'd make it a lot more difficult for Peter to stay undercover as Voldemort's servant, and no chance he could play both sides--it'd be almost as if Harry decided to do something shady outside of Hogwarts. One would expect that his every move would be covered by the Quibbler or curious wizards.

Otherwise--maybe he seriously didn't want the hero-worship? Especially when it would come with the probable loss of his last remaining friend. (Even though it'd be seen as his killing James's murderer, it's also killing one of their friends; Remus would no doubt have conflicted feelings.) We don't have much Peter in canon, but he never seemed like the sort to push himself forward. He was obviously pretty talented in school, but not only did he choose to hang out with people who were so much more talented than he was that they overshadowed him & made him seem slow, but he didn't seem to push into everyone else's faces that he hung out with Sirius and James. Maybe he'd be horrified by fame.

And assuming that the other DEs knew that he was Voldemort's (if not, that brings up whole new questions about how safe the world would have been for him), I imagine they'd be pretty angry that he not only came out of the whole situation alive and untarnished by his association with Voldemort, but came out a hero. It'd be Snape & Karkaroff & Lucius multiplied. Imagine when Bellatrix got out of prison....

[lycoris.livejournal.com]

I think it was because he couldn't fight Sirius. My impression of the scene was that he was trying to run away and Sirius chased. Peter was cornered and actually came up with the idea on the spot - he had his wand behind him, cried out that Sirius killed James and Lily and blew up the street behind him to make it look as though Sirius had done the deed. That way, he could hide from the Death Eaters and have everyone think he was a hero at the same time.

[polykleitos.livejournal.com]

I wonder how guilty Peter felt about what he had done. After all, Lily, James and Sirius were all of friends of his in the past. That might explain not wanting to kill Sirius. But, then again, his freedom was also on the line, and feeling guilty doesn't really explain not wanting to be considered a hero.

[muridae-x.livejournal.com]

He could possibly have killed Sirius and got away with it pretty easily. Sirius's guard was down, and he was suffering from a whole shedload of self-recrimination for fiddling with the Potter's security arrangements and through misjudging Peter making them less rather than more secure.

But if he'd gone the route of becoming the conquering hero who just tragically managed to hit a number of Muggles while taking down the evil betrayer, it would only have taken Sirius out of the picture. Remus would still have been around, and the doubts that assailed him with a "dead" Peter and an apparently traitorous Sirius might not have worked so well in Peter's favour if Peter had been the one to "survive". At the very least there would have been lots of awkward questions, because Remus would no doubt have wanted to meet up with him and ask why? and what happened? Perhaps Peter thought that he might break down under that sort of questioning, and sought a way out that didn't involve any.

Turning yourself into a rat and living as someone's pet for over a decade is a pretty drastic step to take to avoid awkward questions, but Peter had ended up on the wrong side without being particularly liked by it, so he was short on people to turn to in any case.

[shaggydogstail.livejournal.com]

Sirius says that Peter faked his own death to avoid the DEs coming after him, which seems quite likely. I think he might also have known he wouldn't stand up well to questioning--he doesn't exactly do a good job of presenting his case in PoA, so perhaps he thought the Ministry would see straight through him? He would also have been left having to explain things to Remus, who might have been able to trip him up at some point. Peter is good at wriggling out of things, as you say, but when it comes to bare faced lying, he's pretty transparent. (I think the main reason he got away with being a spy for so long is that no-one ever thought to question him--if they had, he might not have done such a good job of getting out of it.)

Did he know that Dumbledore was a legilimens? We see Voldemort read his mind, apparently quite easily, in GoF so perhaps Peter was afraid that Dumbledore might do the same.

Also, I think it would have been difficult for him to get much protection from the Ministry or the Order. Sure, he could have said he thought that rogue DEs were after him for killing Sirius, but there must have been quite a few Order members/Aurors who had killed DEs and they can't have all been put under special protection.

Finally, there's the question of whether or not he'd have been able to kill Sirius. He blew up the street with his wand behind his back--it's not entirely clear how--and McGonagall says he was 'hopeless at duelling.' Perhaps he knew that if he drew his wand on Sirius that Sirius would have disarmed, and possibled killed, him straight away. Or, if you want to allow Peter some modicum of humanity, he didn't think he could bring himself to murder his friend in cold blood (he'd betrayed Lily and James behind their backs--maybe he thought it would be harder face to face?)

[ani-bester.livejournal.com]

I kinda used this to partlyb ack up my assumption that Peter wasn't relaly up for intentional face to face killing.

It would have been more logical, I think, to kill Sirius, but honestly I don't think Peter had the guts. He couldn't kill Sirius personally, but at the same time, I think he ran away after framing him not just to hide from the DE's but because he honestly did not think it would work.

*hsurgs* no proof to that other than it took a heck of a lot of idiocy on the Ministry's aprt to put Sirius away, and I can't imagien Peter counting on that.

So I don't know,I talways looked very intentional, to me, that he did not Kill Sirius,b ecause I mean, man, 12 other people got it, so it's almost like he didn't even AIm.

Though that could also be the poor dueling skills kicking in. Maybe he meant to make it look like he killed Sirius because Sirius had betrayed James and Lily, but he missed.

And killed 12 other people.
And dind't want to hang around to take on Sirius without the element of surprise.

The finger then, would be to make it look like Sirius had hurt him (Peter) and that it was a fair-ish duel or who knows. Maybe the finger happened after he and became part of an emergancy esacape plan. I doubt Siirus would know for sure whether Peter blow thing up first or cut off his finger first. ^^

[midnitemaraud-r.livejournal.com]

I don't think Peter could have bested Sirius in a duel. And I don't think Peter believed he could either - which is why he chose to do what he did. He had his wand behind his back and either Sirius didn't realize that or didn't think Peter's wand behind his back was a threat to him. After all, Sirius, in his unfortunate arrogance, believed that he was a much stronger wizard than Peter, and wouldn't have thought that Peter could best him either. That was why, when he was taken by the Aurors, he was laughing so maniacally.

[mad_maudlin]

Here from the Daily Snitch with my two cents....

I think, when Peter realized that Voldemort was "dead" (I don't think he'd have any reason to think otherwise, unless he was in on the Horcruxes) he panicked--he feared the other DEs would come after him, or at least out him to the authorities (like Karkaroff was doing) if they no longer had a reason to protect him as a spy. So the only thing on his mind was running away, and faking his death--rather than killing Sirius and claiming the glory--was his idea of a brilliant plan.

I also think that, deep down, Peter is/was still scared of Sirius to a point--he was scared of Sirius and James in school so he buddied up to them for protection from the even bigger bullies, like he buddied up to Voldy later on. In PoA when he's cornered he panics, and only manages to act and escape when outside forces (Remus) provide ample distraction, and even then he didn't attack the distracted Sirius, but Ron. I assume he was reacting similarly when Sirius tracked him down and his only thought was to end the situation as quickly as possible and keep escaping, not to dare attack his former protector. Living as a rat for twelve years probably wasn't his original exit plan, but the finger was a moment of sudden inspiration, and once he'd commited himself, he was too scared to risk making his way abroad to hide as a human (he might be recognized or he might miss news about the other Death Eaters).

Besides, I think that Peter had a well-established reputation--one he probably worked to keep and reinforce--of being non-confrontational, indecisive and a little bit craven. The role of the conquering hero wouldn't sit well on him: it's out of character, and people (especially Remus) would've been asking questions. In PoA McGonagall and the others speak with some disbelief about Peter going after Sirius, but since he's "dead" they have to accept that version of events.

[arwencordelia.livejournal.com]

Did Peter know (wait, do we know?) whether Sirius was definitely the prime suspect at the time? Because maybe he wasn't - depending on when it was that Dumbledore spoke to Crouch Sr. and filled him in on the whole Fidelius deal (this was common knowledge to the Order, but perhaps not the Ministry). I'm not sure I remember this correctly, but if I do, DD was called in to give evidence after Sirius was captured, wasn't he?

So if Peter had killed Sirius, he would have been apprehended (because escaping after killing him would have made him seem guilty, and we know the Ministry was going a little haywire with chucking people in Azkaban). Speaking of Azkaban, there's also the use of the unforgiveable (=lifetime sentence to Azkaban), though I'd like to think they would at least consider mitigating circumstances.

Getting back on topic, say Peter kills Sirius, and is apprehended and questioned. Peter couldn't have known what the Ministry would do - could be they would give him Veritaserum (which seems like it should be standard interrogation procedure). Or call in Dumbledore, who would have corroborated Peter's story, true, but who is also a Legilimens, and who may have seen through Peter's act even without resorting to that.

I can sort of see Peter not liking his chances when faced with an inquiry by Aurors, Crouch, and/or Dumbledore. On top of that, the first DEs may have been already starting to question Peter's true intentions - and Azkaban was quickly filling up with them, so even a short prison sentence may have ended very badly for Peter.

Framing Sirius, not killing him, is a surer out. If it worked (as it did), Peter is dead, a hero to boot, and no one's looking for him to kill him - not the Order, and not the DEs. If it didn't work, Peter's still dead - not a hero, but not on anyone's hit-list, either. And I don't think Peter could have counted on the Ministry not checking the facts at all, or on Sirius saying absolutely nothing in his defence and letting himself be framed.

Either way, it seems like the best choice was to accuse Sirius, hope everyone buys it, then bide his time until it's safe for him to emerge as human and alive again.

(Or, y'know, I could have saved us both several minutes of rambling thoughts, and chalk it up to "he had to think quickly and that's the first thing he came up with" :-) But I kind of like the thought of Peter having the Snape-like capacity to size up a hairy situation in a few seconds, and immediately turn it to his advantage).

[secondsilk.livejournal.com]

Sirius and Remus do say that he was living as Scabbers to escape the DEs who thought he betrayed Voldemort, so escape was probably very much his plan of action. And he would have been too scared to work out that he could have gotten away with killing Sirius.
Also, in killing Sirius he would have been free, and would have had to explain things to Remus, who was probably better placed to pick when he was lying.
It may also have been impossible for him to kill Sirius, it may simply have the line he could not cross. Sirius knew what Peter had done, and was finally focusing all his attention on Peter, and had been there right from the beginning. Peter deserved to spend 13 years as a rat, and Sirius did not deserve to die.
I'll probably reassess my feelings about Peter after MQF (book seven), but for now I think he had never planned for things to go the way they did. I always think he thought that James (hero as he was) would defeat Voldemort. And it's fear, but also shame and horror that drives him underground. He also may have thought that Sirius would get off and the world would be looking for him.

[woman-ironing.livejournal.com]

My comment was a response to pauraque and sistermagpie's discussion about Peter being strong-willed and efficient in carrying through LV's orders in the graveyard. (I think that really I just didn't like applying any positive adjectives to Peter!) My feeling was that Peter was weak-willed, and that he derived a sense of personal validity and security from doing what he was told; someone else defined the world for him, it was not his responsibility. In support of Peter pauraque pointed out that his Muggle-slaughter and escape was unlikely to be on LV's orders. I thought if Peter had been strong-willed and efficient he'd have focused on the real problem, Sirius, and dealt with that - killed him. (But then we'd have no Sirius ...)

We don't know the details of Sirius's and Peter's confrontation but can imagine. Did Peter know LV had gone to Godric's Hollow and been destroyed? Had Peter been there with LV and fled from the disastrous scene to cower at home? Was he at home awaiting the outcome of LV's visit? Was he just at home in ignorance, doing a bit of gardening? Whatever, Sirius comes along looking murderous. Peter plays dumb, "What? Where? Me? Sirius!?" Sirius is pointing his wand at Peter. Sirius may be telling him to raise his wand and fight like a man. Peter's cornered. He knows he can't beat Sirius in a duel so keeps his wand behind his back - presumably they've also got an audience of neighbours by now and Peter wants to appear harmless. The audience gives him an idea for escape. He creates his messy diversion and transforms in the confusion. At some point he realises he needs to leave a remnant of himself and does it without anyone noticing (er?). Meanwhile Sirius stands there, blinking, stunned by the realisation that he couldn't organise a piss-up in a brewery and therefore should totally be sent to Azkaban.

When faced with fight or flight, Peter takes flight. I feel that Peter is clever, meaning devious, and that he is able to do dreadful things to achieve his ends precisely because he is too weak to face up to his actions and their consequences.

[jodel-from-aol.livejournal.com]

The thing about Peter that most people don't take into account is that he knows his limits. And deliberately exaggerates them to anyone else. People fall into the habit of underestimating him, and it's a mistake.

Peter's objective in the confrontation with Sirius was to stage his *own* death. The reason he is staging his own death is because the *Death Eaters* believe he deliberately led their leader into a trap. The DEs know that "Wormtail" is not Sirius Black. He could not blame it on Sirius and live as a hero. Blaming Sirius is just to get the Ministry and the Order off his tail as well.

He would have been delighted if Sirius had also been killed in the explosion. He probably had hoped that he would be. There would have been no way that the Order would ever learn the truth, and he would only be in danger from one side. But Peter would still have been living as a rat. The Order isn't really who he was staging his death to hide from.

But explosions are hard to control, and that is the kind of thing, like a car crash, where you can't depend on it to kill a wizard.

Voldemort had dragged him along to the Potter's house, since he took charge of Voldemort's wand afterwards. (Possibly James and Lily's wands as well.) He either stashed it or kept it on him but he certaily took it with him to Albania.

[woman-ironing.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure that Peter is self-aware enough to know his limits and I don't think he planned this in advance. Especially as it's a pretty crappy plan! If Peter knew about the horcruxes and therefore that Voldemort was likely to return he'd be in a better position to help him as a man, and a man of status in the community (see: Lucius Malfoy). If he didn't know about the horcruxes he'd believe Voldemort destroyed so there would be no end in view to life as a rat. As a man he'd be in no more danger from Death Eaters than any other Death Eater. He's used to leading a double life and I'm sure would be able to talk his way out of Death Eater suspicion. Plus he'd be protected by the Ministry.

[jodel-from-aol.livejournal.com]

Well, so far as "in advance" goes; he cobbled it together overnight, since he knew that he had to shut Sirius Black up or he would have *both* sides after him. And Sirius would be able to tell them about his Animagus form.

Peter hasn't a clue about the Horcruxes. None of the DEs do. They know that the Dark Lord has done "something" but I doubt any of them have any idea what. Particularly since Voldemort's transformations wouldn't be in any of the references that any of them have access to. Nobody's ever made *multiple* ones before.

At this point the only people we *know* were aware of that Horcruxes might be involved are Albus, R.A.B., Slughorn, Harry and Co. and Riddle himself. Way off on the periphery, there is the scant possibility that Snape knows something as well. Otherwise it is difficult to account for his absolute certainty that Harry must be protected, by any means.I think it is possible that Albus filled him in on *why* the boy matters. But it isn't certain. It's only a possibility.

[woman-ironing.livejournal.com]

It's ironic, isn't it, that Peter didn't manage to kill Sirius but Sirius sank into despair and was unable to defend himself against the charges of treachery and murder.

It is hard to work out how much Snape knows. Do you think Harry is a horcrux then?

[jodel-from-aol.livejournal.com]

Yeah. I was one of the first wave on Harry-is-a-Horcrux. Probably not the very first, though.

Rowling has given us too many hints and clues by this time for it to be a red herring.

[woman-ironing.livejournal.com]

It looks that way, doesn't it? My problem is Dumbledore's mention of Nagini as a possible horcrux. If Harry is a horcrux and DD knows then his suggestion of Nagini is so misleading as to be virtually a lie, and DD usually takes care not to lie. There's also the question of the significance of LV taking Harry's blood in GoF and why it cheered DD up so. Of course we all kind of know Harry and LV are connected - and the little clinking instrument with the two snakes that DD consulted in OotP is an alchemical expression of this - but what the nature and meaning of the connection is still eludes us.

It's a long time since I checked out your fab website and looking just now I see you've written on horcruxes - and lots more! - I'm off to catch up now.

[jodel-from-aol.livejournal.com]

Dumbledore shaves the truth every which way, depending on his audience. If he had to be *forced* by circumstances to even tell the boy about the Prophecy, he is certainly not going to pop outthe very next year with "And now that you know what a Horcrux is, I have to tell you that you *are* one!"

With that silly sidestep about Nagini he managed to introduce the concept that a Horcrux *could* be a living creature. It is a clumsy device and she's capable of better, but I think the series has gotten out of hand and behaving like a very big dog taking its owner for a run.

[emiweebee.livejournal.com]

It's possible he thought/knew the Ministry would begin a strict interrogation (in America, even self-defense is a hard case to prove), especially with the breach of security, and he wouldn't have been able to keep up the charade.

Also I don't think Peter's much a spotlight sort of person. He's always wriggling out of attention; sure he possibly craved power, but I think he liked the behind the scenes double agent thing. Also, it would have gone down badly when VM did come back and Peter was famous for denying him.

[hagia-sophia.livejournal.com]

You know, this question reminds me of another, which I asked myself after reading GoF: if wizards have such a handy spell as Prior Incantato, why didn't anybody use it on Sirius's wand? They would see immediately that it wasn't he who had killed all those Muggles. But the answer is the same: "JKR and the plot, of course"! :)

[le-mru.livejournal.com]

Perhaps Peter knew kiling Sirius wouldn't be as easy as killing innocent Muggle by-standers.

A furious, desperate Sirius seems to me like quite a dangerous Sirius.

here via daily_snitch