Skyehawke :: PoA 8
May. 7th, 2004 01:21 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
Lo, I have a shiny new Skyehawke account! Thanks,
switchknife.
Skyehawke is a very nice invitational multifandom archive with an excellent system of allowing authors to upload and edit their own work. It's like ff.net, if ff.net were actually good. (However, I find it impossible not to note that its name always makes me smile. Skyehawke... as opposed to all those land hawks.)
*
PoA 8: Flight of the Fat Lady
Ron's experience of Peter parallels that of MPP. Peter is unwanted and "useless", yet somehow an emotional attachment develops. Peter clings to MPP, hangs around them like the pet he literally is to Ron. In each case, the betrayal seems impossible, and comes as a huge shock.
Also in this scene, Hermione again debunks Trelawney's predictions.
ellen_fremedon was right about this when it came up in the last chapter.
Snape needles back, pointedly alluding to Lupin's current dependence on Snape for his safety and livelihood -- twice reminding him to take his medicine, as if Lupin were a child. There may also be a sense of Snape consciously mocking Lupin's mild, passive-aggressive manner -- tit for tat.
Harry is, in a sense, a pawn for both sides. Seeing Lupin and James's son sitting together drinking tea must rile Snape, but Harry's presence also underlines Snape's power over the situation -- he waves the evidence of Lupin's condition right in Harry's face.
Previous re-read posts are here.
![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-syndicated.gif)
Skyehawke is a very nice invitational multifandom archive with an excellent system of allowing authors to upload and edit their own work. It's like ff.net, if ff.net were actually good. (However, I find it impossible not to note that its name always makes me smile. Skyehawke... as opposed to all those land hawks.)
*
PoA 8: Flight of the Fat Lady
Only Draco Malfoy and his gang of Slytherins had anything bad to say about Professor Lupin. (107)Draco seems to hold a grudge against Lupin for stopping him from getting into it with Harry (69), and for no other reason we're shown. I can't recall how Lupin treats the Slytherins in his class, if it's mentioned at all. I doubt he'd intentionally treat them unfairly; he's extremely interested in being the best teacher he can be.
'Look at him!' he said furiously to Hermione, dangling Scabbers in front of her. 'He's skin and bone! You keep that cat away from him!' [...] 'That cat's got it in for Scabbers!' said Ron, ignoring the people around him, who were starting to giggle. 'And Scabbers was here first, and he's ill!' (111)This is quite different from Ron's initial "disgust" with Scabbers when we meet them in PS/SS. It's important now that we see Ron loving and caring for him, so that we can be suitably horrified when we learn the truth.
Ron's experience of Peter parallels that of MPP. Peter is unwanted and "useless", yet somehow an emotional attachment develops. Peter clings to MPP, hangs around them like the pet he literally is to Ron. In each case, the betrayal seems impossible, and comes as a huge shock.
Lavender Brown seemed to be crying. Parvati had her arm around her, and was explaining something to Seamus Finnigan and Dean Thomas, who were looking very serious. (111-112)This isn't exactly relevant, but it reminded me: I'm really bothered by the fact that Neville seems not to have any friends. Harry & Ron and Seamus & Dean have paired off and are constantly in each other's company. Early on in PS/SS, before the troll incident, Hermione and Neville were seen together a great deal, but then Hermione attached herself to the Harry-Ron group. Neville is with them for the Fluffy episode (unlike in the movie!), and the Trio certainly don't dislike Neville, but... who does he hang out with? (Maybe the two mystery Gryffindor girls in his year...)
Also in this scene, Hermione again debunks Trelawney's predictions.
'Well,' said Lupin, frowning slightly, 'I assumed that if the Boggart faced you, it would assume the shape of Lord Voldemort.' [...] 'I imagined people would panic.' (117)
![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
'That suggests that what you fear most of all is -- fear. Very wise, Harry.' (117)It also suggests the theme of the book, that our internal demons have to be confronted just as external enemies do.
'Ah, Severus,' said Lupin, smiling. 'Thanks very much. Could you leave it here on the desk for me?'A lot is going on here. We know the animosity hasn't abated, but has actually increased (107) -- but here, it's expressed passively. Lupin calls him "Severus", Snape replies with "Lupin" -- Snape doesn't want to be friends, as Lupin must know perfectly well. Lupin deliberately doesn't take the hint and does it again. The exchange also calls to mind Dumbledore, the only other character who calls Snape by his first name, who keeps Snape firmly under his thumb, and arguably doesn't respect him.
Snape set the smoking goblet down, his eyes wandering between Harry and Lupin.
'I was just showing Harry my Grindylow,' said Lupin pleasantly, pointing at the tank.
'Fascinating,' said Snape, without looking at it. 'You should drink that directly, Lupin.'
'Yes, yes I will,' said Lupin.
'I made an entire cauldronful,' Snape continued. 'If you need more.'
'I should probably take some again tomorrow. Thanks very much, Severus.'
'Not at all,' said Snape, but there was a look in his eye Harry didn't like. He backed out of the room, unsmiling and watchful. (117-118)
Snape needles back, pointedly alluding to Lupin's current dependence on Snape for his safety and livelihood -- twice reminding him to take his medicine, as if Lupin were a child. There may also be a sense of Snape consciously mocking Lupin's mild, passive-aggressive manner -- tit for tat.
Harry is, in a sense, a pawn for both sides. Seeing Lupin and James's son sitting together drinking tea must rile Snape, but Harry's presence also underlines Snape's power over the situation -- he waves the evidence of Lupin's condition right in Harry's face.
Previous re-read posts are here.
no subject
Date: 2004-05-07 01:53 pm (UTC)I think this is no more than an example of Draco being a plain, old-fashioned snob. We've seen him do it before, with the Weasleys--they're Pureblood (as we are reminded quite constantly), but they're poor, and Draco likes rubbing their faces in it. Lupin may be a teacher--an authority figure--but he's obviousy too poor to look the part. (Draco may not like Dumbledore much, but at least he's not just a step above being on the state dole.) So much of Draco's self-image is based on wealth and influence, and so much of his loathing of the Weasleys and now Lupin is based on poverty and at least apparent lack of influence (or interest in influence!)... I think that the loss of it is going to really throw him into a tailspin.
This is quite different from Ron's initial "disgust" with Scabbers when we meet them in PS/SS. It's important now that we see Ron loving and caring for him, so that we can be suitably horrified when we learn the truth.
I just did a post about HP characters and their pets, and I think that Ron is shown to be a great deal like Molly, especially with the twins. Harry isn't fooled by his gruffness; he knows how miserable Ron is when he loses Scabbers and doesn't take the taunting of Pig seriously for that reason. It's important in this particular scene because Ron is being outright laughed at over his concern for Scabbers. Ron has pride issues, but that loyalty of his comes through here.
The scene between Lupin and Snape is so hard to re-read, just because, unlike Harry, we know what these two men are doing to one another. Lupin's approach is totally unflappable, and that has to drive Snape crazy. I wouldn't call it "passive-aggressive," just because that (to me) seems to imply a kind of sympathy play, which Lupin doesn't do. He doesn't give a rip what Snape thinks of him.
It's a good point that he's doing what Dumbledore does. Of all the characters, I think Lupin is the one being most groomed to take over for Dumbledore after Dumbledore's undoubtedly noble demise. And what better symbol than the werewolf for the mostly good man who makes horrendous mistakes? I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Remus as headmaster in the end. I don't think it's inevitable or anything, but I do think it would fit quite well with the personalities.
There's also the possibility that Lupin's politeness to Snape isn't entirely aggressive. Oh, it has its aggressive element and it drives Snape bonkers, but it could be an honest effort at being mature. Lupin's approach, whatever else it is, is a proper adult response. He's remaining cheerful and collegial and polite. Snape comes off as holding a childish grudge in comparison. Now this is in Lupin's interest, but I don't think it's a false split. Lupin's probably had some time to reflect on the way Snape was treated since the night Sirius tried to feed Snape to him, and he may well feel that he at least owes civility.
no subject
Date: 2004-05-07 04:22 pm (UTC)sorry. it's my problem.
it could be an honest effort at being mature
I don't think so. Lupin is perceptive enough to know exactly how he's needling Snape. If he wanted to apologize or somehow show Snape that he respects him, he would maintain the emotional distance that Snape obviously wants, call him 'Professor Snape' and be deliberately cool rather than address him as a friend.
Also, Lupin was friends with Sirius and James. Sure, he says that he regrets doing nothing, and undoubtedly the teasing did bother him. It was immature and wasteful, and Sirius's stupidity nearly turned him into a killer, what is very likely his worst fear. But I don't think there's anything to suggest that he ever sympathized with Snape. I think it's much more likely that he resents Snape for being right about Sirius all those years ago. ...Until, of course, he learns that Snape is innocent, and note that the last time we see Lupin in PoA (jumping ahead of
Beyond not taking his wolfsbane, he also never told anyone that Sirius is an animagus!!! Sirius broke in at least twice, both times displaying manic intent with a knife!
Remus as headmaster... is a chilling thought.
no subject
Date: 2004-05-07 04:23 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-05-07 09:50 pm (UTC)I read your post, and I agree, it is like that. Interesting how Ron and Hermione seem to be subconsciously mimicking their parents' behavior, yet Harry is a "good parent" -- he doesn't treat Hedwig the way the Dursleys have treated him.
And what better symbol than the werewolf for the mostly good man who makes horrendous mistakes?
Ah, true. The Lupin-Dumbledore parallel rings true to me, particularly in the way they relate to Harry. Harry likes them and expects good things of them, and it's painful for him when they screw up -- in OotP there's the Dumbledore confrontation, echoed by the subtler confrontation of Lupin after the Pensieve scene.
it could be an honest effort at being mature. Lupin's approach, whatever else it is, is a proper adult response.
I have to disagree. The Boggart incident was mature? Calling him by his first name rather than 'Professor' is mature?
I also can't say it's an honest attempt. I think Remus is smarter than that, and understands people better. I can buy that Dumbledore doesn't know he's disrespecting Snape (or at least doesn't realize there could be consequences), but Lupin doesn't strike me as that kind of personality. On the contrary, he's *very* aware of other people's feelings, as demonstrated in the wonderfully fair and attentive way he treats his students.
It's the positive qualities I see in Lupin that prevent me from letting him off the hook for the way he deals with Snape. He understands people too well for it to be plausible that he doesn't know he's contributing to the tension.
no subject
Date: 2004-05-08 11:24 am (UTC)I wasn't referring to the Boggart scene here, but to this particular instance. I think of the last names as a schoolboy thing, the way Harry and Draco refer to one another as Potter and Malfoy, while the more civil relationships use first names (Harry, Ron, Hermione, Neville, etc). Dumbledore and McGonagall call one another Albus and Minerva. Remus is remiss in using it in front of a student, but Snape is remiss in merely referring to Remus as "Lupin" as well--as Dumbledore consistently reminds Harry, the last name unadorned by the honorific is also rude. For perfect politeness in the presence of a student, Snape should have addressed Remus as "Professor Lupin" and Lupin should have addressed Snape as "Professor Snape." But of the two alternatives of direct address they did use, "Severus" is adult and collegial and "Lupin" is adolescent and brusque.
I don't mean to be "letting him off the hook" when I say that part of it is an honest attempt to be friendlier. I don't think the two things are mutually exclusive, especially to someone who used to pal around with James and Sirius, where an obnoxious tweak here and there was probably part and parcel of the way they inter-related. Now, does he care whether Snape is hurt by it or takes it as an opportunity to "loosen up"? I sincerely doubt it. But this method of tweaking leaves an opening for Snape to actually behave like a colleague.
no subject
Date: 2004-05-08 11:40 am (UTC)He used to pal around with James and Sirius who used to bully Snape. In this case should we be grateful he doesn't go as far as calling Snape "Snivellus"? Nothing else he has done indicates respect. Not that Snape is much better the way he won't address him as anything but "Lupin" but at least "Lupin" indicates some distance while "Severus" is a forced intimacy. And since our Remus is so set into proper address he could try calling Snape "Professor Snape" first.
no subject
Date: 2004-05-08 12:49 pm (UTC)What I mean is, there was intra-Marauder tweaking as well, and Remus probably stopped thinking about it. (Peter didn't, obviously.) If they're true-to-form spoiled fratboys, Sirius and James probably had more disgusting things to call each other than Prongs and Padfoot, and we know Sirius's cavalier attitude toward full moons with Remus. To Remus, all that is wrapped up in what he would consider a good and warm relationship. So I don't think he'd necessarily think that tweaking Severus's ego was in direction opposition to being friendly.
no subject
Date: 2004-05-08 12:58 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-05-08 01:01 pm (UTC)(no subject)
From:no subject
Date: 2004-05-08 12:26 pm (UTC)I disagree; they both read as rude to me. I just don't see much to approve of in Snape's or Lupin's handling of the situation -- which, admittedly, is a difficult one. We know Snape literally had no choice in the matter, and Remus may not have had much of a de-facto choice either: He can't get work, and someone with great power in society is offering him a job. How could he refuse?
If Remus isn't being disingenuous and really thinks he and Snape can be pals, he's in denial. That's a possibility -- he does seem to be in denial about how badly Sirius and James treated Snape, given the way he turns a blind eye in the Pensieve scene and then plainly tells Harry it wasn't all that bad.
no subject
Date: 2004-05-08 12:45 pm (UTC)I don't know if this hairline difference makes sense, but I'd class Lupin's as impolite (being informal in front of a student) and Snape's as rude (being openly contemptuous in front of a student). At any rate, of course neither of them is doing particularly well here.
I don't know if it's denial so much as distance. For Lupin, time has passed. It was one moment of many moments in which he knew them, and probably for him, memories of James and Sirius and Peter were more along the lines of them accepting him, of them comforting him after a transformation, etc. Yeah, okay, they were bullies to a few people, but in all his memories, those episodes would occupy a very small percentage of the brain space. It probably occupies equal space with Snape himself throwing random curses around, calling people mudbloods, probably doing a lot of pre-Death Eater damage, and so on... so, hey, I'll let your sins go if you let ours go. It was a long time ago, and we're on the same team now, so just... you know. Let it be, for G-d's sake.
For Snape, on the other hand, that day is always right there and vivid, and he has no other memory that would even come close to balancing it when it comes to James. He doesn't imagine himself as ever having done anything that might even remotely balance this memory in anyone else's mind, either, or if he did, the fact of his leaving Voldemort should render it totally void for everyone concerned.
I do think Lupin is being slippery here as well--he's definitely being untouchable, and in a perfectly mannerly way (except for using the first name in front of a student). And his method of snark, unlike Snape's, allows itself to be taken genuinely if the recipient so chooses (at which point, Lupin himself would be the one put into the friendship trap, which I doubt he'd especially enjoy).
no subject
Date: 2004-05-08 09:53 pm (UTC)We have not seen that. What we have seen is out and out predatory bullying. Someone is who is capable of letting that slide, being rude to the person face buy using the person first name, and talking behoingd is not showing distance. In fact, they are showing a great deal of arrogance- after all, to this point, Dumbledore is behind Remus 100%, and Severus is being forced to make this person's treatment. Just because Remus is soft spoken makes him no less of an asshole. It does make the assholery easy for people to accept.
no subject
Date: 2004-05-08 10:02 pm (UTC)(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:no subject
Date: 2004-05-08 11:55 pm (UTC)We don't know how many people James and company went after. Snape and others, with Snape being still a target even in their Seventh Year, is all we know.
It probably occupies equal space with Snape himself throwing random curses around, calling people mudbloods, probably doing a lot of pre-Death Eater damage, and so on...
Except that Sirius is the one who said Snape knew a lot of curses, and Sirius has been shown to be unreliable. If Remus had said Snape knew more curses as a First Year than half the Seventh Years, that would be one thing, but Sirius' statements are much more biased (both positively and negatively) and really shouldn't be trusted without corroboration.
For someone who knows a 'lot of Curses', Snape gets kicked all over the place in the Penseive scene.
He does call Lily a Mudblood, but a teenaged boy being saved by a *girl*? I wouldn't surprised if he called her worse than that, but it wouldn't do to use that kind of language in a book marketed towards children.
no subject
Date: 2004-05-09 03:39 am (UTC)Well, we do see, right there in the pensieve scene, Snape casting a curse that cuts James' face open. Whether he arrived at school knowing it or learned it later, he did know spells that could do real damage. (And I have a hard time imagining Sirius telling a lie that makes Snape sound more competent than he really was.) There's also that one flash of Snape at an indeterminate but young age, sitting alone in a room, practicing some sort of killing curse on flies.
It wasn't lack of magical ability that kept Snape from defending himself. His obliviousness to his surroundings allowed him to be taken by surprise, and his panicked response (for which I don't blame him) kept him from taking any sort of effective action in return.
He does call Lily a Mudblood, but a teenaged boy being saved by a *girl*? I wouldn't surprised if he called her worse than that.
Actually, no, I don't think he could've called her anything worse than that. It's as the same as if a black student had intervened on his behalf and Snape had responded by calling them the n-word. "Cocksucking motherfucker" would've been less offensive. The fact that Snape, in a moment of rage, automatically resorted to a racist epithet says a lot about his attitude at the time, however much they may have changed later.
no subject
Date: 2004-05-09 12:13 pm (UTC)Being sexist as well as racist doesn't exactly make him look better.
The point is that this was what was at the top of his mind, the kind of thoughts that went through his mind when he wasn't making any special effort. I'm not entirely certain this has changed--he loathes Hermione as well. I don't recall hearing him do anything particularly nasty to Dean, but given his use of the word, it wouldn't particularly surprise me. I mean, I don't think he's out to get Muggle-borns anymore--though I'm sure as a DE, he did some damage--but we've never seen anything more than the most basic level of human response: not helping to kill them in CoS. He's head of house for Slytherin, whose password is Pure-blood. I don't really think his opinions have changed all that much.
(no subject)
From:no subject
Date: 2004-05-08 11:18 pm (UTC)Really? Because I can see that too. I think Dumbledore is a bit shallow in his emotions and can't empathize with someone who is so different from him in personality. Or at least can't without concious effort, which he doesn't seem to be exerting.
[Lupin] understands people too well for it to be plausible that he doesn't know he's contributing to the tension.
Yes! Exactly! Anyone who can pick Neville out for confidence-building would be able to see that Snape does not LIKE being addressed by his given name, and stop it. If that person acutally cared about not pissing Snape off, that is.
no subject
Date: 2004-05-07 10:27 pm (UTC)I'll be delighted if JKR does have Draco deal poorly with his father's incarceration and his own loss of status thereof -- it'd mean she'd actually be letting Draco *develop* as a character, instead of stagnating as a cardboard cutout.
I wouldn't call it "passive-aggressive,"
I would call it passive-aggressive. Lupin is being objectionable in a way that bothers Snape greatly, yet seems so minor from an outside point of view. He's pushing the limits in apparently 'minor' ways and that's what passive-agressives *do*.
Lupin has a really annoying habit of using people's given names, even when the person he's addressing has made it clear that they don't want Lupin to do that. Not only does he call Snape 'Severus', but in OotP he calls Tonks 'Nymphadora'; this is a breach of manners, since British social rules are that only true intimates, not mere co-workers, use given names. It's also a very subtle powerplay, as it puts Lupin in a superior position that Dumbledore occupies, of being so old/powerful that he can address everyone around him as if they were a child.
Of all the characters, I think Lupin is the one being most groomed to take over for Dumbledore after Dumbledore's undoubtedly noble demise.
I can see that, and yet I think it would be a disaster. Not only would Snape spin out of control because there is no way he'd take a subordinate position to Lupin, but Moody wouldn't respect Lupin enough, and goodness knows what the other members would react like -- if Mrs. Weasley's reaction to the werewolf in the Arthur's ward is typical, there would be a lot of unconcious resistance to Lupin in charge because of his werewolfism.
he may well feel that he at least owes civility
Except civility would be moving back to using Snape's surname once Snape didn't reciprocate with Lupin's given name. As it is, it's Remus pressing intimacy on Severus, as if they were friends, and it's creepy.
no subject
Date: 2004-05-08 11:30 am (UTC)Well, in her case, I think it's meant to imply that they've known each other a hell of a long time, probably before she was just known by the adolescent "Tonks"--after all, if she's the child of Sirius's favorite cousin, chances are, they would all have been around when she was a child. I can sort when I know people from by what they can't resist calling me. People I know as an adult know me as "Barbara," while people I knew as a teenager call me "Barb." My godmother has been known to slip and call me "Barbie" and my uncle calls me "Babs." Note, I hate both Babs and Barbie, but I recognize that I can't do a thing about people who've known me all my life. It's the name business--because of the manners involved--that makes me simply assume that Remus and Dora are a whole lot more than "mere co-workers." (No, I don't mean lovers--at least not at that point--but definitely old, old friends.)
no subject
Date: 2004-05-08 11:22 pm (UTC)As to the name thing, when my cousin went from Joey to Joe, and my friend Iffer went to Jen, everyone respected their wishes and called them by their preferred name. To insist otherwise would be *rude*. I can't see how Remus Lupin gets a pass just because he might have known Tonks as a little girl.
no subject
Date: 2004-05-09 08:38 am (UTC)Why would that have happened? Just because you meet people through someone doesn't mean your relationship with them is dependent upon the initial relationship. I have a series of fanfics about the Dora/Lupin relationship as it develops over the years... so far, no one's said, "Wow, that's totally impossible!"
no subject
Date: 2004-05-09 12:21 pm (UTC)Well, there are two reasons. The first is the grown-up clause--if you're a little kid and someone has always called you something, honestly, it's just part of the way things are.
More importantly, it appears to be a game between them, not a one-sided thoughtlessness. Everything about that scene suggests that she's being playful with him with her over-the-top rebuke in the middle of a normal introduction. The conclusion I'd draw from it is that her name is a long-standing joke, like some people's middle names are. For some reason, my grandmother hates her middle name. She's also been married a few times. So we joke about getting her a name bracelet with her middle name, her maiden name, and all four husbands' names... it's just a running thing, and she jokes about it as well. Although she does genuinely hate her middle name. It's a normal thing that people tease one another about, and Tonks seems to have a pretty thick skin.
no subject
Date: 2004-05-08 11:35 am (UTC)I know this is a tangent, but I think in Tonks' case, the rudeness involved isn't in the intimacy, as Tonks calls all her fellow Order members by their first names or nicknames, even when there's an age difference. ("You do know that's disgusting, don't you, Mad-Eye?") It's rude because she doesn't LIKE her first name and prefers not to be called by it, even by intimates, and would prefer that non-intimates not KNOW what it is. I am quite certain she came in for the very obvious teasing such a name would inspire.
Remus needs to mind his manners.
no subject
Date: 2004-05-08 12:01 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-05-08 01:26 pm (UTC)Remus is introducing her in standard form--you say, "Harry, this is Joe Smith," then Joe Smith says either "Call me Joe," or "Nice to meet you" (in which case, you assume "Mr. Smith").
Tonks uses a nonstandard form of address, so it's up to her to clarify what it's going to be. Saying, "Harry, this is Nymphadora Tonks," is the proper way to do it, in which case, she would say, under purely professional conditions, "Call me Tonks. Please."
Instead, Remus gets partway through the introduction, and she cuts him off with, "Don't call me Nymphadora!" which (a) divulges her name herself and (b) establishes that it's a game for Remus to actualy use that name on her... otherwise, he'd just be doing a standard introduction and there would be no need to cut him off. To assume otherwise assumes that she's both stupid (revealing info herself that she wanted hidden) and rude (interrupting an everyday social ritual with a strident demand). She doesn't come off as either.