Shaken, not stirred.
Jul. 15th, 2004 12:01 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
pauraque_bkThis is a question I haven't been able to answer satisfactorily for my own purposes, which is a bit embarrassing (and burdensome, as a writer), so I'd like to get some fresh opinions.
How could Dumbledore not know Peter was the spy?
Peter was in the Order; presumably he and Dumbledore had some interaction. Dumbledore is an expert Legilimens. Peter is very emotionally demonstrative -- he seems the last person who would be able to conceal such a secret.
Perhaps Peter was so underestimated that Dumbledore would never have thought he was a traitor, no matter how odd his behavior. Or maybe his behavior actually didn't seem odd: He's a nervous person, everyone knew that, and no one thought anything of elevated anxiety during wartime.
Is it possible that Peter was not afraid of the prospect of being found out, either because he placed such trust in Voldemort, or due to some other aspect of the circumstance?
Or might Peter have done such a good job at diverting suspicion onto Remus that it was never really questioned by those who were in the loop?
Whatever the case, it seems odd that Dumbledore wouldn't check everyone in the Order from time to time -- it appears that all he has to do to get a quick read on someone is to look into their eyes. This leads to the thought that something was hindering Dumbledore's ability to read Peter. Many have suggested that Voldemort taught Peter a few tricks, as it were -- could Occlumency be one of them? The Occlumency/Legilimency experts we know (Snape, Dumbledore, Voldemort), are all socially maladjusted in one way or another; Peter would make an interesting addition to this group.
Or might Voldemort have placed Peter under something like the Fidelius Charm, preventing him from revealing the secret?
This one is a bit of a stumper for me. All suggestions welcome.
How could Dumbledore not know Peter was the spy?
Peter was in the Order; presumably he and Dumbledore had some interaction. Dumbledore is an expert Legilimens. Peter is very emotionally demonstrative -- he seems the last person who would be able to conceal such a secret.
Perhaps Peter was so underestimated that Dumbledore would never have thought he was a traitor, no matter how odd his behavior. Or maybe his behavior actually didn't seem odd: He's a nervous person, everyone knew that, and no one thought anything of elevated anxiety during wartime.
Is it possible that Peter was not afraid of the prospect of being found out, either because he placed such trust in Voldemort, or due to some other aspect of the circumstance?
Or might Peter have done such a good job at diverting suspicion onto Remus that it was never really questioned by those who were in the loop?
Whatever the case, it seems odd that Dumbledore wouldn't check everyone in the Order from time to time -- it appears that all he has to do to get a quick read on someone is to look into their eyes. This leads to the thought that something was hindering Dumbledore's ability to read Peter. Many have suggested that Voldemort taught Peter a few tricks, as it were -- could Occlumency be one of them? The Occlumency/Legilimency experts we know (Snape, Dumbledore, Voldemort), are all socially maladjusted in one way or another; Peter would make an interesting addition to this group.
Or might Voldemort have placed Peter under something like the Fidelius Charm, preventing him from revealing the secret?
This one is a bit of a stumper for me. All suggestions welcome.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2004-07-15 12:42 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-07-15 06:36 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-07-15 06:37 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-07-15 06:48 am (UTC)But I found this: http://www.geocities.com/willowsevern/book5/kingsley5.html
'Well,' said Dumbledore, surveying her with polite interest over the top of his interlocked fingers, 'they certainly would be, if they had continued after the Decree came into effect. Do you have any evidence that any such meetings continued?'
As Dumbledore spoke, Harry heard a rustle behind him and rather thought Kingsley whispered something. He could have sworn, too, that he felt something brush against his side, a gentle something like a draught or bird wings, but looking down he saw nothing there.
Marietta was standing exactly where Umbridge had released her. She seemed neither perturbed by Umbridge's sudden attack, nor relieved by her release; she was still clutching her robe up to her oddly blank eyes and staring straight ahead of her.
A sudden suspicion, connected to Kingsley's whisper and the thing he had felt shoot past him, sprang into Harry's mind.
'Unfortunately, I had to hex Kingsley too, or it would have looked very suspicious,' said Dumbledore in a low voice. 'He was remarkably quick on the uptake, modifying Miss Edgecombe's memory like that while everyone was looking the other way - thank him, for me, won't you, Minerva?
I think that section rather neatly sums up the 'good' side, for me, anyway...
no subject
Date: 2004-07-15 06:55 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-07-15 12:49 pm (UTC)So one for the many. Perhaps it was unethical. But there you go. O_o
no subject
Date: 2004-07-15 01:00 pm (UTC)The problem I have with the 'good' side in HP is their willingness to do whatever it takes - 'the ends justify the means' seems to be their motto.
Perhaps it was unethical.
Perhaps? Really? Wow, different strokes for different strokes! To me, there's no perhaps about it!
no subject
Date: 2004-07-15 01:55 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-07-15 01:57 pm (UTC)At this point I'm hoping that both sides implode through their own hypocrisy, leaving Stan Shunpike to forge a brave new world...
no subject
Date: 2004-07-15 02:36 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-07-15 05:44 pm (UTC)i think that's the most morally sound hp political theory i've ever heard. >:}
no subject
Date: 2004-07-16 02:34 am (UTC)And if both sides implode, he can be The Omega Man! (he was in his bus at the time, and conveniently missed all the fuss ;)
He can talk to the Wizarding Chess boards, and wreck the bus (there's never an Auror around when you need one!)
Now somebody remove my keyboard from my hands before I write this...
no subject
Date: 2004-07-15 06:16 pm (UTC)But you've got to leave whatshisname -Ernie Prang- along too. And if you go by the movies, you get the cool head on the dashboard as an added bonus :D
no subject
Date: 2004-07-16 02:26 am (UTC)I'll start:
Psshaw, the Voodoo!Head is liek so fanon!
Only a total n00b would ship that!
I was a Stan fangirl back in the days before the internet, and we had to walk three miles in the snow every day - barefoot! - to share our fanzines!
You guys just like him because of the actor playing him! Listen lady, I was delving into Knightbus!Angst and literary analysis of Stan before Lee Ingleby (and yes, I had to look that up on the IMDB ;) was even born!
no subject
Date: 2004-07-16 04:15 pm (UTC)Erns & VooDoO!Head r liek so totalee cool - get dat into ur head!
U think ur so grate w/ ur attitude. & ur typing & ur long dramatik storis! But u no, (or u probabli dunt cauz ur suuuch a n00b!) I wuz liek a NiteBus luver wen teh book 1st came out!!!1!!1! Which is liek, 4eva! So lay off, cauz im not teh n00b here!
(I suck at this don't I? :D)
no subject
Date: 2004-07-17 04:07 am (UTC)*eyes shift suspiciously* Livejournal is obviously a loser Ernie/Stan shipper and is plotting against me...
no subject
Date: 2004-07-15 12:47 pm (UTC)And I think having a spy would be ample reason.
To the idea of Peter being a occulmens.. I'm not sure of that. It requires strong will power correct? And Peter has always been shown, from Harry's POV, as being a pathetic cowardly weakling - one who is dedicated to his own survival. So.. perhaps in some situations which concern his life, he's strong, but in others no...
I wonder what the reaction of the MWPPL would have been if they knew he was a spy (before of course he betrayed the Potters). Would that put his life at risk? Would they kill him? He had been passing information to Voldemort for a year before he killed them.. would what he did have been bad enough for his best friends to kill him? -ponders-
no subject
Date: 2004-07-15 03:24 pm (UTC)Peter is morally weak, but I don't find much evidence that he's magically weak. Sirius and Voldemort state that they think he is, but that doesn't add up with what we observe. We've rarely seen Peter fail at any magic he's attempted, even powerful magic under extreme duress.
In GoF, Peter is assigned to keep Crouch Sr under Imperius, so we know he can do that, and for quite a long time at a stretch. Admittedly, Crouch Sr eventually escapes, but remember that Crouch is something of an Imperius expert. (It's also possible that Peter let him go, either intentionally or due to subconscious misgivings about the plan, as we discussed last week.)
He had been passing information to Voldemort for a year before he killed them.. would what he did have been bad enough for his best friends to kill him?
I find myself doubting that they would have killed him if he hadn't (indirectly) killed someone first, but I could be wrong. When Remus says "You should have known, if Voldemort didn't kill you, we would," is he referring to their present situation, or to what they would have intended if they'd found out about the spying at the time? Hard to say, and I don't have the book on me.
no subject
Date: 2004-07-15 06:00 pm (UTC)Anyways to the issue of Peter's talent:
'Never quite in their league, talent-wise. I was often rather sharp with him.' '...he was always hopeless at duelling...'
Hmm.. that really doesn't tell us much at all, as we know that Sirius/James were exceptional. But even if Peter was magically strong or decently strong, I don't think that's exactly what's needed for occulmency. I think that for occulmency one needs strong willpower - not actual magical talent. But, his holding the Imperius over Crouch Sr for such a long time could be an indication of his willpower... To my knowledge, it hasn't been said what you needed to cast/hold the imperius. For AK power, for cruciatus - want to cause the other pain.. but for the imperius.. no.
As to the other, we haven't really seen Peter perform much at all. Well he said some words and threw ingredients in a cauldron. And he was successfuly part of the Fidelius charm - very complex according to Flitwick - though Lily/James might have had to do more than Peter. And he became an animagus (though Remus says that Peter needed all the help he could get). And of course the Imperius on Crouch. Waiiiit.. but did Peter put the imperius on Crouch? In GoF it says 'placed under the imperius curse by my master' which would imply that Voldemort was the one casting it. Peter just had to be 'watchful.' So Peter hasn't really done much magic at all then. =S
To the other, I believe Peter was referring to the present situation.. it's not really clear on that.
no subject
Date: 2004-07-15 06:34 pm (UTC)-Become an Animagus
-Participated in the Fidelius Charm, though we don't know what that means
-Blown up a street and killed twelve people without hurting himself
-Stunned Ron and Crookshanks before anyone knew what was happening (not that this is super-impressive, but if we're listing all the magic we've seen him do...)
-Returned Voldemort to a fetus-body-thing in Albania (we don't know how this happened, but Peter did it!)
-Maintained the Imperius on Crouch Sr (I think -- I'm still at work, still don't have the book)
-Transformed fetus!Voldie into powerful!adult!Voldie -- long debates have been had over how much skill this took on Peter's part, but it looked like pretty powerful magic to me
I think Peter's poor performance in school had more to do with lack of confidence than lack of skill; as you suggest, it can't have been easy to compete with James, Sirius, and Remus. As for Voldemort, he has good reason to tell Peter he's a "poor wizard" -- he's manipulating Peter's emotions to keep him subservient. I disagree with Sirius, McGonagall, and Voldemort: When it comes to magic, Peter's no slouch.
But, of course, this may all be beside the point if Occlumency is as much a matter of will as of sheer magical force, which I agree seems reasonable. What I need to do is get ahold of GoF and see what Crouch-as-Moody says about the Imperius, and work out what Peter actually did to Crouch Sr.
no subject
Date: 2004-07-15 07:11 pm (UTC)'He needed me. He arrived at our house near midnight. My father answered the door. [...] It was very quick. My father was placed under the Imperius curse by my master. Now my father was the one imprisoner, controlled. My father forced him to go about his daily buisness as usual, to act as though nothing was wrong...'
'Wormtail and I did it. We had prepared the Polyjuice potion beforehand. [...] Moody put up a struggle. There was a commotion. We managed to subdue him just in time.'
'Wormtail returned to care for my master, in my father's house, and to keep watch over my father.'
'But Wormail neglected his duty. He was not watchful enough. My father escaped.'
-597-598 of GoF Brit Version.
'You are in luck, Wormtail [...] You are very fortunate indeed. Your blunder has not ruined everything his is dead.'
-501 of GoF Version.
So from this I would say that yes, he was supposed to watch on Crouch to make sure that Crouch did not fight Voldie's imperius. I wonder what Peter was doing while Crouch escaped then... Probably attending to Voldie :P