Shaken, not stirred.

[pauraque_bk]

This is a question I haven't been able to answer satisfactorily for my own purposes, which is a bit embarrassing (and burdensome, as a writer), so I'd like to get some fresh opinions.

How could Dumbledore not know Peter was the spy?

Peter was in the Order; presumably he and Dumbledore had some interaction. Dumbledore is an expert Legilimens. Peter is very emotionally demonstrative -- he seems the last person who would be able to conceal such a secret.

Perhaps Peter was so underestimated that Dumbledore would never have thought he was a traitor, no matter how odd his behavior. Or maybe his behavior actually didn't seem odd: He's a nervous person, everyone knew that, and no one thought anything of elevated anxiety during wartime.

Is it possible that Peter was not afraid of the prospect of being found out, either because he placed such trust in Voldemort, or due to some other aspect of the circumstance?

Or might Peter have done such a good job at diverting suspicion onto Remus that it was never really questioned by those who were in the loop?

Whatever the case, it seems odd that Dumbledore wouldn't check everyone in the Order from time to time -- it appears that all he has to do to get a quick read on someone is to look into their eyes. This leads to the thought that something was hindering Dumbledore's ability to read Peter. Many have suggested that Voldemort taught Peter a few tricks, as it were -- could Occlumency be one of them? The Occlumency/Legilimency experts we know (Snape, Dumbledore, Voldemort), are all socially maladjusted in one way or another; Peter would make an interesting addition to this group.

Or might Voldemort have placed Peter under something like the Fidelius Charm, preventing him from revealing the secret?

This one is a bit of a stumper for me. All suggestions welcome.

Comments

[caesia390.livejournal.com]

I think it would be well not to over-estimate the competence of Dumbledore. We've seen from OotP and GoF that is he is quite capable of misjudgement and mistakes; he just presents the picture of omniscience.

We know (largely thanks to you, I might add) that Peter is very good at seeming insignificant and adapting. Survival is something he doesn't even have to think about, so even in the stressful situation of being a spy in the midst of a war, I think he'd unconsciously know what to do to put everyone off his track. Which means drawing attention to Remus (or more likely, presenting information and viewpoints so that others draw attention to Remus), acting in accordance with his loyal-friend-to-James persona (I still haven't decided under what circumstances he betrayed James - still obsessed? regretful?), and basically being not worth the bother to even suspect.

Dumbledore seems very pro-Gryffindor, meaning he values action and bold moves. He wouldn't associate those qualities with Peter, but on the other hand, Peter isn't a Slytherin, to be adept at sneakiness. Not that Dumbledore isn't old or wise enough to imagine shades of grey, but he's the leader of a war effort, under a great deal of pressure himself, and it seems like his own natural prejudices have a certain amount of sway over his thoughts.

Also, I wonder if another failing of Dumbledore isn't hubris - suspecting members of his Order means admitting his own fallability. ...But on the other hand, if he had to suspect someone (which we know he did), then Peter seems a prime suspect in terms of seeming off... which brings us back to square one.

Someday, I am going to be able to make an argument that has a point, I swear...

[arwencordelia.livejournal.com]

I wonder if another failing of Dumbledore isn't hubris - suspecting members of his Order means admitting his own fallability

Hubris is, in my opinion, the most likely explanation for Dumbledore's behavior. Dumbledore wouldn't have been respected for so long if he weren't both competent, and intelligent. But it seems to me that at some point (perhaps during/after the business with Grindenwald?), the WW began to regard Dumbledore as infallible. Sooner or later, Dumbledore himself must have started to believe this.

He just seems to be someone who's convinced he cannot be mistaken. The one notable time he admits his own fallibility to Harry, at the end of OOTP, he explains that the only reason he made a mistake is because his motives were so noble: he so loved Harry, he didn't want to burden him with vital information; he kept an already emotionally disturbed Sirius locked up only to try and save his life. In other words, Dumbledore's brain would never had failed him, if his heart weren't so darn good. And if that's not hubris, or at least arrogance, I don't know what is...

[exbentley]

I like Occlumens!Peter, or at least the idea of him having picked up a bit from Voldemort; perhaps purely for the very reason of him not being found out.

I think Dumbledore would have been suspicious of him, but didn't have any direct proof, and he was close enough to MPP that he could accuse without giving offense; much in the same way no-one downright accused Remus of being the traitor. That would explain why he believed Sirius without very much proof at the end of book 3, also.

He does seem like a very anxious person, and there would be other stresses. It could be a combination of your ideas; he wasn't that noticable, when you noticed him he was always anxious, and he made sure that even if suspicion arose (as it was likely to in those kind of tense circumstances) there was no way of getting proof.

[ellensmithee.livejournal.com]

These are good points. I also imagine Dumbledore isn't just going around using Legilimency on people without just cause. It would be a massive invasion of privacy, and he is, after all, ostensibly one of the good guys.

[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

I dunno, the 'good' side didn't even blink about altering the memory of a child in OotP...

[paradox01.livejournal.com]

But he does. Not to a deep extent like Snape that's true. But Dumbledore is always 'x-raying' people's eyes throughout the series. He tests them. Like in CoS, when Harry was trying to silently convey that Ginny had opened the chamber - and Dumbledore legilimensed in and saw.

And I think having a spy would be ample reason.

To the idea of Peter being a occulmens.. I'm not sure of that. It requires strong will power correct? And Peter has always been shown, from Harry's POV, as being a pathetic cowardly weakling - one who is dedicated to his own survival. So.. perhaps in some situations which concern his life, he's strong, but in others no...

I wonder what the reaction of the MWPPL would have been if they knew he was a spy (before of course he betrayed the Potters). Would that put his life at risk? Would they kill him? He had been passing information to Voldemort for a year before he killed them.. would what he did have been bad enough for his best friends to kill him? -ponders-

[noblerot.livejournal.com]

I have regretfully concluded that Dumbledore is an idiot.

Amen

[dphearson.livejournal.com]

And yes, amen.

[ptyx.livejournal.com]

Which makes Voldie a double, triple idiot, because Dumby defeats him with a wave of his hand/wand.

Let's face it, Dumbledore is not a consistent/coherent/possible character.

[scarah2.livejournal.com]

One thing about time-traveler!Dumbledore (Ron or whoever else you like).

If Dumbledore already knew how the war, or most of it, panned out, and he'd gone back in time, he'd be trying really hard not to change too much. I've seen a lot of theories that Dumbledore knows all through PoA what's going on, and actually engineers Pettigrew's escape.

I read a play-by-play analysis of the Shrieking Shack where Snape knows everything that's going on, but is trying to stop the kids from saying too much, because he's helping Dumbledore to execute the escape of Pettigrew. His all-caps rants back at the castle are also carefully timed to divert attention from the kids talking to Fudge. I'm not totally convinced, but it did mess with my head.

[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

I've seen a lot of theories that Dumbledore knows all through PoA what's going on, and actually engineers Pettigrew's escape.

Really? Do you have any links, please? That's an interesting theory.

"Why No, Mr. Voldemort, I want you to die!"

[dphearson.livejournal.com]

what we know is this; Dumbledore knew it was someone in the James Potter's circle of friends. I think that with Dumbledore, Occulemency/Legimency is something not be used unless you absolutely have to. so- Peter could have been the traitor, and the traitor for some time, and Dumbledore would not had reason to necessarily suspect him, since it was dear sweet, appreciative Peter, after all.
Here is another thing: Remus said that they were surrounded by DEs towards the end. It may be possible that Peter decided to turn sides really late in the game, when he thought that his side was not going to win. Sirius giving him that information would have been a goldmine of a prize to give to Voldemort, in exchange for his own safety.

Re: "Why No, Mr. Voldemort, I want you to die!"

[sedesdraconis.livejournal.com]

It may be possible that Peter decided to turn sides really late in the game, when he thought that his side was not going to win. Sirius giving him that information would have been a goldmine of a prize to give to Voldemort, in exchange for his own safety.

Now that's a logically compelling suggestion. Perhaps no one knew Peter was a traitor, because he wasn't until such a temptation was set before him, to buy his way in to safety on the other side, at a time when things were becoming critical for his side.

[dailyplanet.livejournal.com]

I think Peter rules so I'm inclined to believe that he is slick enough to fool people, especially if they don't think to frequently scan his brain to check his loyalty. But there was other evidence lying around to implicate Peter that Dumbledore should have picked up on.

Dumbledore makes so many ridiculous mistakes, I don't know how to keep on making excuses for him when new readers ask me: "What's up with Dumbledore??"

At the very least, they had Sirius Black, they could have Occulmens-ed him or stuck his head in a pensieve thingy or done that spell they do on people's wands to see what they cast. Weren't they even slightly curious as to why he went bad? You'd think they'd want to answer some questions.

I also would like to know why they suspected Lupin, and if they did, why they didn't Occulmens him or whatever and get to the bottom of who was the traitor??

They're so sloppy ---BOTH sides in this "war" are!! It gives me the impression that if either side had ONE leader who actually acted rationally this whole thing would be over and done with in a week.

And then we'd have more chapters for Quidditch---forget I said anything, actually...

[glitterdemon.livejournal.com]

I also would like to know why they suspected Lupin, and if they did, why they didn't Occulmens him or whatever and get to the bottom of who was the traitor??

I don't think there's any textual evidence that anyone but Sirius suspected Remus, and I think even that can be blown out of proportion. If you know of something that I've forgotten, though, I'd be interested in hearing it.

[ajaxbreaker.livejournal.com]

Hi, I'm here through someone's friends list and just wanted to join the discussion...

Now that you mention it, it is a bit strange that Dumbledore didn't catch on. It's not as if the Order was that big, and they did know they had a spy among them. Plus, Sirius says Peter leaked info for a whole year before the Potters' deaths. No matter how competent and sneaky Peter may have been, I find it really hard to believe that he could keep it up for that long right under Dumbledore's nose, especially if the Order knew somebody was spying. True, Dumbledore runs a school and has many other things to do, but still. I don't think DD would have shied away from using Legilimency on people without telling them - after all, the safety of the Order was at stake. Plus, I think there are suggestions in a few places in the books that he might have used Legilimency on Harry.

The only solution I can think of is that the Fidelius Charm was used to hide Peter's activities. Voldemort could have become Secret Keeper. If the secret hidden was "Peter Pettigrew spies on the Order", this would ensure Peter's safety. Plus, the Order would still know that someone was the spy, they just wouldn't know who. This leads to everyone starting to suspect each other, for example Sirius & Remus, and spreading discord in this manner is exactly right up Voldemort's alley, wouldn't you say?

The only kink in this theory is that Sirius knew in PoA that Peter was the spy, which he shouldn't have if Peter was protected by Fidelius. I suppose it's possible to argue that once the Potters died, Peter's status was not a secret any more and Sirius could easily deduce the rest despite the Fidelius Charm - especially if the Fidelius is weakened given that the Secret Keeper (Voldemort) doesn't have a body at that moment.

[neotoma.livejournal.com]

Or if the Fidelis charm breaks when the Secret-Keeper dies -- Voldemort did, at least technically.

[mimine.livejournal.com]

I don't think Dumbledore ever gave Peter much thought. He probably didn't even bother with Legilimens on him. Peter could always rely on others underestimating him.


The double spy theory that Arwencordelia gives above is also fascinating. Dumbledore letting that bumbling fool spy away and then the fool getting the information about the Potters without Dumbledore knowing about it! It is also a very chilling prospect considering that in that case D. must have suspected the switch rather than really believing that both Sirius and Peter had been spies after all (esp. if we assume that he had Legilimensed Sirius and found him clear) yet apparently did nothing to help Sirius.

[paradox01.livejournal.com]

But Dumbledore tries to see each student - or at least that's what we've been led to believe - for their own individual strengths and weaknesses. I just can't see Dumbledore point-blank not caring/thinking about Peter.

DD knows...

[goldie-black.livejournal.com]

I figure DD did know Petey was the spy (did he not offer himself up as secret keeper?). But thought Sirius was the final choice. So, it's Sirius' screw up in thinking the spy was Lupin (and Lupin thinking Sirius). No?

Re: DD knows...

[pauraque]

But that raises the troubling question of why Dumbledore let Sirius go to Azkaban, knowing he was innocent. The question can be answered in a few different ways:

-Dumbledore thought they were *both* spies, and thought Sirius had killed Peter for some internal-Death-Eater-politics reason.

-Dumbledore had no solid evidence, and/or his political influence was not enough to set Sirius free.

-Dumbledore had reasons of his own for letting Sirius go to prison -- possibly to placate Snape, possibly because he somehow knew that it would be important in the future.

[mizbean.livejournal.com]

Funny, you should ask because my husband and I were having a similar discussion last night. He was especially bugged that Deatheater!Snape had no knowledge of Peter's interactions with Voldemort, if indeed he was feeding Voldie information for over a year. I suppose the only people who know about this were Peter and Voldemort -- the better to keep this a secret.

As was said up-thread, Dumbledore seems to miss a lot. He also believed in Sirius's guilt before Peter's deception was revealed, didn't notice Imposter!Moody, Scabbers was Peter and that MWPP were animagi.

Peter probably was rather quiet and thus underestimated.

[musesfool.livejournal.com]

He was especially bugged that Deatheater!Snape had no knowledge of Peter's interactions with Voldemort, if indeed he was feeding Voldie information for over a year. I suppose the only people who know about this were Peter and Voldemort

Yeah, that's a problem I have, especially as Sirius says in PoA that the DEs knew about Peter:

"You haven't been hiding from me for twelve years," said Black. "You've
been hiding from Voldemort's old supporters. I heard things in Azkaban,
Peter... They all think you're dead, or you'd have to answer to them....
I've heard them screaming all sorts of things in their sleep. Sounds
like they think the double-crosser double-crossed them. Voldemort went
to the Potters' on your information... and Voldemort met his downfall
there. And not all Voldemort's supporters ended up in Azkaban, did they?
There are still plenty out here, biding their time, pretending they've
seen the error of their ways.

[fairy-tale-echo.livejournal.com]

Hi! In from daily_snitch where I've seen some of your stuff before. Always juicy and filled with great comments. So, I'm friending you if you don't mind! :) And, also, I wish to make out with your icon. Heehe. Best quote/character combo EVA! :)

This has always puzzled me too. But the bigger question for me has always been...um...why in GOD'S name didn't Dumbledore know that MWPP were illegal animagi running around during the full moon? I am pretty sure that the four of them caused plenty of trouble and, besides that, didn't anyone ever, ya know, CHECK on the werewolf? In any way? I've always thought that HE did know but just sort of... turned a blind eye to it. WHY? Didn't he know how dangerous this was for EVERYONE? Didn't he think it might lead to some sort of situation where one student might possibly be hurt or killed? (ya think?!) But that brings me back to my frustration of Remus never telling him, even after Sirius being sent to Azkaban about the animagi thing, even when Dumbledore gave him the chance in PoA.

I don't think Dumbledore is evil. Really. I wouldn't have made some of his choices, especially not the OotP ones, but I've always regarded that with the Buffy line Giles got told when he was fired as Buffy's watcher: Your affection for your charge has rendered you incapable of clear and impartial judgment. You have a father's love for the child, and that is useless to the cause. This endears him to me, even as it frustrates me.

Why didn't he know Peter was a spy? I think he loved those boys. Really and truly, he thought they were...princes. He loved the way they embraced and trusted each other: stumbling Peter and werewolf Remus and outcast Sirius (a Black who isn't in Slytherin?!) and even arrogant James who messed with his hair to look cool. And he never got over that love for them. And love, as we've seen, makes him turn a blind-eye in situations where he should know better.

At least, that's my thoughts/questions...sorry if I bored you to death! ;) I love the discussion here! :)

[paradox01.livejournal.com]

Hmm.. I'm another person from daily_snitch.. I've also been wondering about this issue.

I think that it might have been a test for Peter. He knew Peter was a Death-Eater but couldn't get himself to believe that Peter would surrender that information. Dumbledore has this thing about seeing the best in people. Though maybe he knew, he just didn't think that Peter would, if it came down to it, betray his friends..

And also, he thought the Secret-Keeper was Sirius... so no need to worry about Voldemort finding out it via legillimency.

That's quite a weak theory, but the only one I can think of :S

[caffymajin.livejournal.com]

Dumbledore heard the prophecy from Trelawney before the Potters were attacked (naturally, or else it wouldn't actually be a prophecy now would it?), and perhaps he had figured it out, and as much as it pained him to see the Longbottoms get tortured to insanity,and the Potters killed, that was the ONLY way the prophecy could be fulfilled and Voldemort could be fully destroyed. He couldn't do anything to prevent those things from happening, or else he'd be losing their only chance to win the war. (I saw this through a friends list and couldn't resist a comment :D) Just my 2 knuts.

[mizbean.livejournal.com]

I had thought of that myself. If this is true, it would pain me to have to read the scene in which Harry confronts Dumbledore about this.

[cheshyre]

Dumbledore is an expert Legilimens.
He is now -- but how skilled was he at it fifteen years ago? Maybe Peter's betrayal was one of the reasons he beefed up his skills to the level it is today?

[pauraque]

Hm, that's not a bad point. Dumbledore is so old that we expect he learned most of what he knows a long time ago, but we don't know for certain.

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

Personally, I tend to leave out Dumbledore from all theorising, because I don't think he is a fully developed character. In my eyes, he is the voice that explains the background to Harry and the readers at the end of each novel, without really contributing to the plot. Asking why Dumbledore did not know about Peter's role as a spy, one could just as well ask why Dumbledore did not know about Voldemort sticking out from the back of one of his teachers' heads, and why he did not realise that one of his best friends was, in fact, an insane Death Eater, fresh from Azkaban, who had been imprisoned since he was 19 and had no chance whatsoever to learn all the stuff the real Moody was likely to know after a long career as an Auror: I am convinced that in all those cases the answer is, the author needed Dumbledore to be ignorant to be able to carry on with the plot.

There were other people in the Order, however, who could have guessed that it was Peter who was the spy. Sirius was too arrogant to consider Peter, but Remus, who knew that he wasn't the spy, and James, who had a family to protect and was likely to suspect everybody, might have had some suspicions. I think that it is very likely that Peter switched sides very late and, in addition, not because he was convinced that embracing the Dark side was the right thing to do, but because he thought it was the smart thing to do, given the circumstances. The good guys offered no longer protection, and he was most likely constantly underestimated by them. The Dark Lord offered the career of a lifetime. He offered the promise to have a lifetime, in the first place, seeing as the Order members were being killed off in quick succession.

I think that Peter's motives were largely based on fear, and that he acted out of self-protection. But, not being convinced of the cause of the Dark, he didn't act upon ideological ground. He didn't want Voldemort to triumph. He wanted to stay alive.

Is it possible that Peter was not afraid of the prospect of being found out, either because he placed such trust in Voldemort, or due to some other aspect of the circumstance?

I think this is very likely. I don't consider Peter being evil. It all comes down to self-preservation, and he acted in the full knowledge of doing wrong. I can well imagine that he assumed a very fatalistic position: knowing that he was doing the wrong thing and yet unable to stop himself from doing it, he would let fate decide whether or not he was found out.

In conclusion: I think it was the combination of circumstances: Peter running over at a rather late point, Sirius not suspecting Peter because of his arrogance, James and Remus suspecting virtually everyone and not singling out Peter, and dumb luck. Not very helpful, is it?

As to why Spying!Snape didn't have any information on Peter: The Death Eaters didn't necessarily all know each other. We know that they wear masks and robes during their meetings. We know that they use the Dark Mark to distinguish each other, which suggests that they don't necessarily know each other by name/face.

[pauraque]

I actually agree with everything you just said, and I think the fact that I nonetheless find myself with a lingering dissatisfaction gets at the heart of the difference between (most) fanfic and (some) ordinary literature.

the author needed Dumbledore to be ignorant to be able to carry on with the plot.

This, while acceptable for JKR, is not something a fan writer can get away with. What we're doing, essentially, is trying to turn her narrative, which is partly realistic and partly a fairy tale, into pure psychological realism. With some characters, this is easy. With others, it borders on impossible.

[gaeta.livejournal.com]

I am quite willing to believe that Peter did turn traitor very, very late, and that, therefore, both Dumbledore and Snape might not have known. What troubles me more, though, is that those who knew Sirius -- Dumbledore, McGonagall, and, of course, Remus, so easily accepted his guilt. I can imagine that Remus would have been too devastated to face Sirius, but I find it hard to believe that Dumbledore would not have confronted Sirius in person at some point, got his story out of him, and made at least some effort to find out if there were any truth to it. Remus may have been afraid to tell Dumbledore that Sirius and Peter were animagi, but surely Sirius would have had no compunction about doing so.

Does anyone else think it improbable that Dumbledore would not have visited Sirius in Azkaban?

[pauraque]

If Peter turned traitor late, what do you make of Sirius's assertion that he was "passing information to Voldemort for a year before Lily and James died"? Do you think there was another spy? Or that the Order misinterpreted whatever evidence pointed to a traitor?

[wolfie-thu.livejournal.com]

Whatever the case, it seems odd that Dumbledore wouldn't check everyone in the Order from time to time -- it appears that all he has to do to get a quick read on someone is to look into their eyes.

I think Dumbledore would have found himself with a lot fewer followers if he used Legilimency on them regularly. Frequent interrogations like that would most likely have demoralized the members of the Order.
Or at least, that would happen if my theory on Legilimency is correct: that while a Legilimens can pick up some of the vague surface emotions and thoughts of their target without speaking the incantation (example: Snape "knows" that Harry had been stealing from his office because he can pick up that Harry is feeling guilty, even though it was actually Dobby doing the stealing), true Legilimency cannot be done without alerting the target (i.e. the flashes of memories Harry experienced).
So Dumbledore wouldn't have been able to truly "read the minds" (sorry Snape) of those around him, unless he was prepared to face the mob of people furious that their privacy had been violated.
At least, as long as my theory is correct. Which it probably isn't.

This could also help explain why Snape never knew Moody was a fake, etc. He wouldn't risk Mad-Eye's wrath by poking around in his mind, and surface readings (Legilimency without the incantation) of Barty Crouch's mind would have revealed his emotions were consistent with his outside self (i.e. Both the real and fake Moody hated DE who had gone free, though for very different reasons, reasons that Snape could only have learned about if he used full Legilimency).

[nakedcelt.livejournal.com]

Isn't everybody forgetting one really simple possibility?

Dumbledore is an expert Legilimens.

Where, exactly, does it say that? All Dumbledore lays claim to is being "enough of a Legilimens myself to know when I am being lied to". He needs Veritaserum to extract the truth from Barty Crouch in GoF.

[pauraque]

I suspected that was self-deprecation, given that he sees himself as competent enough to teach Harry to defend himself against Voldemort (assuming we believe his excuse for not teaching Harry himself).

As for the Veritaserum, I think that would have been necessary in any case, otherwise everyone would have had to take Dumbledore's word for what he'd seen in Crouch's mind.

bitch please!

[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

http://www.marysia.com/hpcanon/shunpike_s.html Psst, babe. Learn it, live it, love it. For *some* of us, it's our bible, but I guess you're too n00bish to worry about trifling details like canon while you're still infatuated with Alfonso 'I so badly want to be Tim Burton' Cuaron and his pseudo-plot, which btw, I have it on extremely good reference (my sekrit community, which you are soooo not invited to join, and probably couldn't find even if you were!) JKR did NOT approve.
Yeah, that's right. All you PoA enthusiasts are RAPING JKR'S SOUL! Way to go! Have you no respect for the women from whom Stan sprung, fully formed and Athena like, from her goddess like forehead?
No, as long as you're writing your Ernie/Voodoo head mpreg, you're happy, right?
Never mind about a little thing called 'authorial intent', which I mastered in my critically acclaimed DE!Stan!/Animagus!Sirius fic 'The Dark Knight (Bus) of the Soul' which won best fic at StanCon84; based upon canonical evidence from page 38 of PoA - oh sweet page 38, you've known so many tears and sweet joys as you live under my pillow...

"... all You-Know-’Oo’s supporters were tracked down, wasn’t they, Ern? Most of ‘em knew it was all over, wiv You-Know-’Oo gone, and they came quiet. But not Sirius Black. I ‘eard he thought ’e’d be second-in-command once You-Know-’Oo ’ad taken over...‘Cos ’e’s mad..."

Ever wondered HOW STAN KNEW Sirius' intimate thoughts, feelings and mental state?
You probably thought it was sloppy exposition from JKR, you ingrate, instead of her gifting us with homoerotic subtext as a reward for our interpretation of the text!
But then, what am I saying? The literary methods we Shunpike gals use are so very beyond you. I heard you ship Top!Stan. Yeah *snickers* Enough said.

(pauraque, please don't ban us...*facepalms*)

Re: bitch please!

[paradox01.livejournal.com]

Oh puh-leaze! http://www.marysia.com/hpcanon/prang_e.html C that? Well, learn & live & love *that*! Uve obviously been missin sum pgs of 'teh Bibull' - go on and reread it. I bet uve never even read it more than once - and so u havent bin able to grasp the concepts of LUV and so so OBVIOUS shippping - u skimmer u!

Liek *I* would want to be, liek part of UR community. I bet it's full of looooooosers, who cant c teh goodness of Ernie da driver-wunderboi.

And dunt insult Alfy! Ppl liek u just cant apre-c-8 the goodness of teh movies. U and ur canon-shamanon! Liek that matters. I bet u dunt even like Orli - god of teh sex. And Alfy as his 2nd.

U cant even c teh truth behind the Ernie/Voodoo headmgreg. Theyre luv is sooo canon- my arguments in support bein 'ISNT IT OBVIOUS?!11!!' Cant u c, dat they are DESTINED 2 B! ITS FATE.

U tink cauz uve ritten 1 fic ure so gud. Well u noe, Ive ritten plentty! My luvely fic re: Ern's last words at teh end of time.

>quote<
'It is, time.'
'Ar.' sed Ern, his voice morningful & wistful.'
'It is, dah end of dah wurld, but teh beginnin of a knew aira.'
'Ar.' sed Ern, his voice now still sads, but tinges with hope and feeling.
'It is time, 4 u to recreate dah human race.'
'Ar.' said Ern, his voiced fulled of brave and stowic partriotism.
'It is time dat I present to u, THE VOODOOHEAD OF DOOM.'
'Ar.' said Ern, as he set eyes upon the voodoohead of doom, his voice now filled with wistful yearning.
'Ar.'
>/quote<

Ahh.. teh brillants....

U cant even c past ur nose! But Ernie can! He's got em thick glassess - u can take your oh so sweet page 38 and shove it under the Nite Bus cauz I'm introducing.. dah TRUE PAGE.

I've torn out da page, looked @ it, x-zamined it, kissed it, cried on it, held it tight - and *never let it go*, my dear and beloved, yes, dats rite folks- introduuuuucing page 35!

Collywobbles he sed.
Gas explosion 2.

Such wurds of wisdom. Eva so informative. -sniff-

Ern, u r my hero.

(yes please don't ban us *facepalms* *headdesks*)